S2 Ep.28 Writing Slump
Writing Slump - Transcript
[JAMIE] There. Now we're record status. Rolling, rolling, action. [Jamie and Karli chuckle]
[A.P.] All right, let's do it. [chuckles]
[JAMIE] All right. I almost grabbed a second cup of coffee. And then it was like, maybe I shouldn't have my heart palpitate and my hands shake.
[KARLI] I'm on my third. I figure I'd rather have heart palpitations than cry. So, you know, might as well have like, an anxiety attack during the podcast.
[JAMIE] We'd rather broadcast the anxiety than the sorrow. [chuckles]
[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely.
[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]
[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break, where we're talking about all things story.
[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.
[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.
[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.
[INTRO MUSIC FADES]
[JAMIE] Originally, I was going to call this episode breaking a writing slump. And then I realized that that would probably require one of the three of us to know how to do that. [all chuckle] So now it's just writing slump. [laughs]
[A.P.] Sure. Just baseline.
[KARLI] I like it.
[JAMIE] You know, we don't want people to get too dependent on, like, us actually having viable information.
[KARLI] Offering something valuable.
[JAMIE] We don't do that here.
[A.P.] You guys are so negative to yourselves and your own podcast. [Karli chuckles] Every time I listen to episode, you're like ehhh. You're experts in your field.
[KARLI] This is our podcast, and we get to do whatever we want. It's like it's our party, but we'll cry, and we'll cry if we want to kind of thing.
[A.P.] Okay, incorrect.
[JAMIE] You just said you weren't gonna cry. [laughs]
[KARLI] Oh, crap. [A.P. laughs]
[JAMIE] That's a different podcast. Karli's gonna have to start, emotional support podcast.
[KARLI] Yeah.
[JAMIE] That sounds marketable. Um, just sayin'.
[A.P.] Isn't that just like a late night phone call between you two, where you just weep at each other? [Jamie and Karli laugh]
[JAMIE] Every night. Eleven o'clock weep session. Pity, pity, pity.
[KARLI] It's our eleven o'clock weep session. Pity party.
[A.P.] Then A.P. was mean to me on the podcast.
[KARLI] Right?
[A.P.] [pretend crying] He messaged me to get it together.
[KARLI] [laughs then pretend crying] Told me to stop complaining. Sit my ass down and actually write this.
[JAMIE] [pretend crying] Do the thing. [Karli laughs] [normal voice] Oh boy, welcome to The Act Break, the story centric podcast, run by under-qualified people. I'm Jamie Redact a science fiction and speculative fiction author being crushed under a mountain of projects that could be books if only I could get it together to edit them. My co-host, K.C. Ash is a fantasy and grim dark author who is simmering in her current vibe soup WIP. And today we are joined by our guest A.P. Thayer, a speculative fiction and horror author that has sort of been crushing it all year, but for some reason, keeps showing up to talk to us.
[A.P.] By sort of, you mean not.
[JAMIE] You act like you're not, but let's be let's be honest. Just take it. He's really good at taking compliments you guys. [A.P. grumbles]
[KARLI] He's like shrinking away from the computer. [A.P. chuckles] He's gonna go hit stop leave meeting, and he's gonna bounce if we keep talking nicely to him.
[JAMIE] Not like he's had multiple stories published and a guest editing. But he still keeps showing up, which is fantastic because he has a wealth of knowledge. And his episodes always perform better than [all laugh] the ones with just me and Karli. But that's not why we asked you here. [laughs]
[KARLI] No, no, that's—that's not it at all. No.
[A.P.] Little did you know? [chuckles]
[JAMIE] Originally, I said we should do a writing slump one and get A.P. to come on and give us a pep talk. Yeah, that was my that was my original goal.
[A.P.] Little did she know,
[JAMIE] That's not happening.
[KARLI] So we're all here to commiserate today?
[A.P.] Actually, to be fair, I'm better at pep talking other people out of their slumps than myself out of my own.
[JAMIE] Same. Woo.
[KARLI] Me too.
[A.P.] Listen, with just the three of us combined. Yeah. [laughs]
[JAMIE] Yeah, we do a round robin situation. [Karli laughs] I think it's safe to say that we're all at different stages in our work. And in our—for me, I'm using air quotes, writing career. [laugh]
[A.P.] Stop using air quotes for your career. [Karli laughs]
[JAMIE] He's so bossy.
[A.P.] You wanted this. [all laugh]
[JAMIE] I asked for this.
[KARLI] You asked for this. [all still chuckling]
[JAMIE] This is my fault.
[KARLI] Literally what you wanted.
[JAMIE] It is.
[A.P.] Listen, you both have been writing for years. You both are entrenched in the community and have built a wealth of experience that you're now sharing with others. You're absolutely qualified.
[JAMIE] I have to go. [all laugh]
[A.P.] Yeah, how does it feel Jamie? [chuckles]
[JAMIE] Yeah.
[KARLI] I was just waiting for more. I was just soaking it in and I was like yeah, tell me more about how awesome I am.
[JAMIE] She just holds her head back like she was getting drenched in glory.
[A.P.] No. I only do little tid-bits it's like, little sprinkle it everywhere.
[KARLI] Oh, okay.
[JAMIE] Small smattering.
[KARLI] That’s, that's probably a good idea, spread it out.
[JAMIE] So we're all at different stages, but we all hit writing slumps. We all hit those times where the writing suddenly doesn't come easy, or that just, it just stops.
[KARLI] Or at all.
[JAMIE] Um, exactly [Jamie and Karli laugh]
[A.P.] I mean, I'd say it's like the exception for it to come easily.
[KARLI] Yeah.
[A.P.] At least for me, even like a middling day. It's like a struggle. I'm like, you gotta put the focus and energy into it.
[JAMIE] Yeah, I think it's really, really rare to have somebody who doesn't hit like those slumps and lulls, like 99% of us are not like Brandon Sanderson, who just like stress writes four books.
[A.P.] That smarmy man.
[JAMIE] Most of us, uh—
[KARLI] Mere, mere mortals. [Jamie and Karli laugh]
[JAMIE] So it’s, it's common, you're not alone listener.
[KARLI] You are not alone. We're all in this together.
[JAMIE] I want to talk about kind of what a writing slump is to us. And then like the ways they differ, because even though all of us have them, they vary in length, and cause. So along my research, I started to realize that what I consider a writing slump is kind of different than other people. So I wanted to know what your guys's opinion was. I realize that a lot of these people were specifically referring to like, the act of writing or not enough ideas or not enough create—
[KARLI] The creative juices aren't flowing?
[JAMIE] Like you're sitting at your desk, but the words aren't flowing, like that kind of writing slump.
[KARLI] Okay.
[JAMIE] So I kind of feel like there's creativity, slumps, and motivation slumps.
[KARLI] Yeah.
[JAMIE] And I tend to have motivation slumps. [Karli laughs]
[A.P.] So are you saying one is ass is in chair, you're saying a blank page and you can't come up with anything? And the other one is, you don't even get your ass in the chair?
[JAMIE] Yeah, pretty much.
[A.P.] Okay. I gotcha. I concur. [all chuckle]
[KARLI] I happen to agree. And I am in the midst of a... both of them. [all chuckling]
[JAMIE] Oh, double. A double slump.
[A.P.] A two-fer.
[KARLI] [chuckling] I've got a, I got a double whammy going on right now. I'm trying to break the motivation, one, because the creative one doesn't look like it's going anywhere. I am deeply entrenched in that one. And so I let that turn into a motivation slump. So now I'm trying to break the motivation slump in the hopes that that will break the creative slump, because nothing else is working. [laughs]
[A.P.] But you sat down yesterday before, I saw you.
[KARLI] Yeah, I did. I sat down yesterday.
[JAMIE] Butt in chair, you did it.
[KARLI] Butt in chair, I didn't write anything creative. Doesn't matter. I journaled. So words went onto a blank page. Revolutionary, I deserve a f*@%in' cookie.
[A.P.] But not to like lead the discussion a little bit. But I wanted to point out that you, you left your home and wrote somewhere right? To talk about like the slumpy stuff. That's definitely something that's helped me in the past as well. Getting out of the same environment is really, has been really important.
[JAMIE] Yeah. Do you hit more motivation, or more creative slumps?
[A.P.] How do I phrase this in a way that doesn't make you two hate me? [all chuckle]
[KARLI] Make us hate you. Make, make me hate you A.P..
[JAMIE] Make us hate you. Because then I'm gonna say something and it's gonna make us hate me. So it's fine.
[A.P.] [chuckles] Okay.
[KARLI] I love it. I love it.
[A.P.] I... It's rare for me to hit a creative slump. Um...
[JAMIE] Almost verbatim what I was gonna say. [A.P. and Jamie laugh]
[A.P.] Like, I can always work on something. I've got so many ideas. I've reached so much short fiction that like if I'm not working on a long piece, I'm writing on a short piece or working on several different short pieces. So it's like, I don't really struggle with that anymore. There was definitely a time where I would like sit in front of a blank page and it'd be like, okay, how do I get into the creative mode? And how do I start just writing stuff. But that doesn't really happen to me anymore. If I'm sitting down to write, my brain just knows, okay, it's writing time and whatever I choose to work on or wherever my brain takes me. I just get going.
[JAMIE] So it's more the motivation to put the words on the page, like dedicate the time.
[A.P.] Yeah, over the years, that’s the one that's hit me hardest. As my career has continued, the amount of time that I've spent in that kind of lull has gone down as well. It's pretty rare for me to be in a mood where I'm like, I don't want to sit down, I can't sit down. This isn't working for me. It still happens every once in a while. The most recent one was maybe like eight months ago, I was like in the third act of my novel doing edits. And then I just took like a month and a half off, where I was just like, I can't look at this anymore. Everything sucks. I suck. I'm not sitting down and writing.
[KARLI] Do you feel like the reason that those are so rare for you now is because you have established a consistent routine of writing, where you show up regularly for yourself, and so that's why your brain goes, yes, it's writing time; because you have established that habit? The patterns in your brain are like, yeah, we're sitting down to write. And so this is what we do.
[JAMIE] Yeah. Atomic Habits cues. This cue leads to the next cue.
[A.P.] Yeah, there's a lot of prescriptive advice when it comes to writing. Making it a habit is definitely one of the ones that not only have I stuck with, but actually has just been consistently true for me. I'm sure it doesn't work for like, 100% of the people; but making writing a habit just within my own work, and what I've seen other people do has just consistently led to better results.
[KARLI] I think it's not a bad thing to try that.
[A.P.] Yeah.
[KARLI] Like, try making it a habit and then come back and tell me that that's not working for you.
[A.P.] Yeah, exactly.
[KARLI] Then we'll come up with other ideas. But chances are...
[JAMIE] It's a proven method. So many writers preach it. Because...
[A.P.] Because it works, very often.
[KARLI] Because it's true.
[JAMIE] It's basically science. It's training your brain. [A.P. and Karli chuckle]
[A.P.] Yeah.
[JAMIE] So I mean, there's that.
[A.P.] The more you do it, the faster your brain falls into the flow state for writing, the quicker it can like access ideas and creativity. I am not a scientist. I don't know the studies and all that. But you know, but it has worked for me.
[JAMIE] But they exist.
[A.P.] Yes, they're out there. [chuckles] Yeah, for sure.
[KARLI] You can go look it up. In the past, when I was writing consistently, was definitely true for me, my brain would just engage. And we would be like, this is what we do, even if the words that came out like weren't glowing, or awesome, or if it was even still painful to get them out, more often would come faster. And I'd fall into my groove. And even if the words were bad, I was writing words, and they were coming out of me.
[JAMIE] I—same camp as A.P., the creativity isn't necessarily the issue. The motivation is the issue. It's not happening. And it's not because I don't have something to work on. [Karli chuckles] In fact, if I didn't have to edit books, I always have another book that's distracting me from my edits. [laughs] If I could just draft, that would be a whole different story, but especially in the slog of editing, because that is writing, just another phase of writing, but it's soul sucking. [Karli laughs]
[A.P.] Oh, yeah.
[JAMIE] And when you have your soul sucked out of you, you don't want to come back to it every day. Weird.
[A.P.] Yeah. And that's where making it a habit is super important. It's showing up on—I mean, this is true of any habit. Again, we've talked about Atomic Habits earlier in this episode, I'm sure we've talked about it in previous episodes. Going to the gym as a habit, like getting up and walking is a habit, all these things like, the point is to do it on days when you don't want to do it. So some words are better than no words, bad words are better than no words.
[JAMIE] Yeah. The next thing I wanted to ask about was why we slump, everybody's going to hit one. But have you noticed any patterns in what leads you to feel like, [groans] I don't want to do this.
[A.P.] Editing definitely, like you just said is a big one. If I spend too much time editing my own work, the self-loathing reaches critical levels [all laugh] and I have to take a break.
[JAMIE] When I hear people being like, I'm just gonna like edit my book, it should be done in like two months or whatever. And I'm like, how do you do that? If I have to look at my book for more than twenty minutes no— [A.P. laughs] I'm just—it takes me longer to edit than it does to write the whole book, honestly. Well, I'm a slow reader. [A.P. and Jamie chuckle] That doesn't help. But yeah, the edits are what cause my slumps.
[A.P.] I know there are people who prefer editing to drafting. Sociopaths—complete socio—. No I'm just kidding. Yeah, I mean, everyone prefers a different part of the writing process, and that's fine. But yeah, there's something about editing that will almost always... I don't think I've ever edited any of my long fiction and not gotten into a slump partway through it. Where I just need to take a break and I'm just like, I'm burned out. I need space from this.
[JAMIE] If I look at this for any longer, I'm gonna light it on fire and walk away.
[A.P.] Yeah, or myself or everyone or...
[KARLI] I need—yeah, I need to take a break from myself. Please. How do I do that?
[A.P.] Yeah, exactly.
[KARLI] I think most of it for me is actually like life situation. Current life circumstances affect me much more than what I'm working on. Different seasons require different things from me, um—which you know, that's normal, that's people, that's life. Summers, almost always slump me, I very rarely can keep creativity through the summer because kids are home and I allow myself to get out of schedule. The motivation thing in that whole habit, I tell myself, I'm allowed to have a break. And I am not the kind of person that can take a break, like a long break. Like brakes are good, brakes are important, but I am, I break habits so easily. So you know, if I allow myself to take that break, that's like, I'm like, it's a day or two have a break, or a week or whatever. But if I go any longer than that, and sometimes a week is pushing it for me, it will go completely. And then before I know it, it's 3, 4, 5, 6 months. And I'm like, what happened? [Jamie chuckles] Where am I, and then the self loathing piles on and then it takes me even longer to break out of it, because I'm angry at myself. And then it just keeps going. And then it's, it's having to get back into that routine again. And it feels daunting, because you know it's been longer than it should have. And then that mental game starts and you have to fight against that. And it's exhausting.
[A.P.] Not to keep going back to Atomic Habits, but he talks about that too. [chuckles] He's like, you know, it, you know, if you take a day off, or whatever you miss a day, don't create a new pattern of not doing it. So you want to create the pattern of doing it. And then if you miss a day, don't let it happen twice.
[KARLI] Yeah. Or, and also like the being kind to yourself when you do miss a day, rather than like berating yourself. And like, at least for me, like some people, maybe that works. And I'm like, oh, man, don't do that. And then they can get right back into it. But if I start getting on myself for feeling bad about it, that sends me further.
[A.P.] I definitely struggle with the berating. [Karli laughs] I feel like sometimes I can berate myself and it works. And other times it doesn't. I also feel like anytime I'm supporting my friends, I feel like I'm berating them, but I try to do it in a positive way.
[KARLI] I don't know, it works really well for me. [A.P. and Karli laugh]
[A.P.] Well good, good—
[KARLI] Please, keep it coming. [laughs]
[A.P.] Because I worry sometimes I'm like f*@%, I'm not really being like, supportive. You're just kind of being an asshole. [A.P. and Karli laugh]
[JAMIE] Well, I will say for me, I never think you're being an asshole. And it works in a way that I'm like, oh, A.P. believes in me, I should do it.
[A.P.] Perfect. Good.
[KARLI] That's—that's how it comes across.
[A.P.] It's working as intended. Excellent. [all laugh]
[JAMIE] Good, good. I agree, Karli, about personal life. Because when I bother to refer to my notes—[A.P. chuckles] It says, when my personal life gets busy, all of my creative energy gets drained. So I stop putting the time aside to do that. And even when I do have the time, then I don't have that creative energy, because I just don't have, [dramatic whisper] I just don't have it in me. I've already given all that I have.
[JAMIE] Right, the finite, finite resources. When you do sit down, you're like I already gave it all.
[KARLI] [laughing] I'm just an empty vessel.
[KARLI] That's the thing though, is I think where I'm at is I do I feel empty. I feel like my well is dry, I'm trying to intake that was one of the things I wanted to talk about is like, there's like a quote, and I can't remember who says it, "reading is like inhaling and writing is like exhaling." And you can't exhale, if you haven't inhaled.
[A.P.] I wanted to echo what you both said, when my, when my life is not in order, or the old mental health is not firing on all cylinders. That slumps are definitely more likely for me, I have privilege in that I'm able to cut away from other aspects of my life to make sure that writing is always number one. Like I can work less hours at my job, I can like skip the gym, because those things are lower on my list of priorities and I will just like not spend as much money on food or not go out or not do whatever and work less hours and spend those hours, like spend the same amount of time writing but spend less hours working or doing chores or doing whatever else I need to do, so that I can kind of try and recover. I know that other people are not in that position. Karli can't just be like, screw them, screw them kids. You know. [A.P. and Karli laugh]
[KARLI] Not gonna parent today. [laughing]
[A.P.] Yeah, like—
[JAMIE] You guys got this figured out right? I'm gonna go.
[KARLI] They're fine. They know how to work a microwave. [all still chuckling]
[A.P.] Back in the mine with you. [all chuckle] So I have sacrificed certain things so that I can put myself in this position where I can really just be like, writing is always going to be number one. And if other things take a hit, that's okay.
[KARLI] Yeah.
[JAMIE] I don't remember when it was on another episode, we talked about spinning plates. And each plate is a priority in your life and some are, some you can let fall and some have to keep spinning. And everybody's priorities are going to be different.
[A.P.] For sure.
[JAMIE] Some things, some things can wait. Like, the gym is almost always the first thing to go on my list. [all chuckle] I don't need that! When really, I do need that because it super helps my mental health and my body. So if I'm going to be sitting at my desk lot, I really do need to work out because sitting at a desk a long time does not does not feel great.
[A.P.] Yeah, the amount of back pain is like inversely proportionate to the amount of time I'm in the gym.
[KARLI] [laughs] Right?
[A.P.] Crazy. It's weird.
[KARLI] Weird.
[JAMIE] So we've already kind of really touched on some some good points of things that can bust you out of your creative slump. Getting outside your house. Location can be very helpful. Because you know, if you spend a whole bunch of time at your desk goofing off or on the Internet, much like the Atomic Habits—that's our big recommendation for the day, I think. [A.P. laughs]—your brain thinks, I can do whatever I want when I sit here, I can be on the internet.
[A.P.] While you had a call me out like that? Damn. [Jamie and Karli laugh]
[JAMIE] If you have a specific place where you always work sitting down at that place, cues your brain, that it's time to work. Going to a coffee shop that you work at pretty consistently. Coffee shops, libraries, a library is a great place to go. Because you don't have to spend any money. It's quiet, and they don't care how long you sit there. Yeah, yeah. You know, I get the not everybody can go to a coffee shop that—coffee is outrageously expensive.
[KARLI] Oh my god. So expensive, right now. [A.P. chuckles] Even a cup of black coffee. But yeah, exactly. Libraries are free. There are places to go that don't cost you anything.
[JAMIE] Yeah, a park.
[A.P.] You hit the nail on the head. Because like when I'm at my worst when it comes to like focus on writing and all that. It's because I'm sitting at my desk and watching YouTube. And the desk is where I'm supposed to be doing my day job. And my laptop isn't where I'm supposed to be writing. And if I conflate those things, or if I just start spending time watching YouTube all day, then it all goes out the window; and I do—my solution to that is I get out of my house, I walk to the cafe. And as soon as I walk in, I get my coffee, sit down, and it's just boom, writing time. Every time it's, it's guaranteed to get me out of that.
[KARLI] I was thinking about it yesterday because I went to a coffee shop to write. And I sat down and immediately, I didn't feel creative, but it felt completely different than the entire last couple of weeks where I was trying to sit at my desk and do it. I felt less defeated when I opened up the document.
[JAMIE] Because you've sat at that table so many times and have felt defeated that you're like, you no longer have home court advantage.
[A.P.] Yeah. [all chuckle]
[JAMIE] You're just getting your butt whipped in the same place.
[KARLI] Definitely not. Yeah, exactly. Getting my ass kicked in the same place over and over again. But I was thinking it's so funny how like, I know this. I know going to a coffee shop will help me. Like the logic is there. But did I go to a coffee shop at all this summer? No. Not once. I mean, like, yeah, I went to get coffee, [A.P. chuckles] but like usually I hit that I hit the drive thru or something like that. I was on the way to somewhere. But I didn't I could go with my computer or notebook and sit down by myself.
[A.P.]
Yeah, it is overly simplistic to just be like, oh, just go to a coffee shop. Because it takes more than that. It's self-awareness. And then it's the drive where like, okay, pack up my shit and go. And I—we keep talking about the gym too—it's like that too. You're like, I don't want to go to the gym. But if you put on your your gym clothes, you're like, alright, let's, let's go to the gym.
[KARLI] You're more likely to go. Yeah.
[JAMIE] And it's also, have you ever once worked out or sat down for a writing session and thought, I wish I didn't do that?
[A.P.] Yeah, no.
[JAMIE] No, every single time even if it was awful, you're like, well, at least I did it. I have a sense of accomplishment.
[A.P.] Totally.
[JAMIE] I was also going to ask about length of time for writing slumps, because they also vary. Some people who work, work, work, work, work, consider a writing slump not writing for a week. And to me, I'm like that's just life. [all chuckle] I had a writing slump in 2019 where I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything all of 2019. [laughs]
[A.P.] Wow.
[JAMIE] Yeah, but I found my way out of it eventually, which is really weird that I was able to find my way out of it, in 2020.
[A.P.] Some people made bread, you got out of your writing slump?
[JAMIE] Yep. I feel pretty great about that. Although I do like bread. [A.P. and Karli laugh] That would have been almost as helpful. So how long do writing slumps tend to last for you guys?
[KARLI] Three months, every summer.
[A.P.] Yeah.
[JAMIE] [chuckles] Yeah. [Karli laughs] There you go. Pattern. And that's another thing I was gonna ask is like, if there a length of time, have you noticed a pattern?
[KARLI] So it's usually during school breaks. And so it, it fluctuates for me. But yeah, it's usually a pretty consistent pattern. And then when I get back into routine, then that's how it shifts out of it.
[A.P.] I was gonna say that since 2016, I don't think I've had a slump, where I did absolutely no writing. I think the longest I went taking a break from a novel was three months. The second longest was the six weeks, you know, eight months ago, whenever that was. During those times, though—and I've said this before—I wrote some short fiction. So it might not have been like, oh, I'm gonna write a bunch of short fiction, I'm like, really into it. But I did write a little bit as a palate cleanser. So I can't say that I've gone a very long time without writing or doing a writing related thing. Period. I'd say maybe like a week of zero writing stuff would be the longest.
[JAMIE] We're all just slightly like different lengths. And I think that that also has to do with how consistent we are with our routine. [Karli chuckles] Because, I tend to do it like for like a month to a month and a half. And then all at least come back and edit something. The same thing A.P., where it's like, I maybe haven't done nothing, but maybe just not anything substantial. Life gets busy, personal life gets busy. And it's like, I'll have just like a month where I'm like, well, I have to deal with all of this.
[A.P.] Yeah, you use the word simmering at the beginning of the episode. And like when I'm in a slump, like, it's, it's pretty rare for me to not be doing anything. But like, there's, there'll be like this low level of energy where I'm doing something.
[JAMIE] Yeah, even if I don't have a lot of energy, I usually have just barely enough to like, do an edit where I'm inputting somebody else's line edits over my work for grammar. Like that doesn't take a lot of creative energy. So I can at least sit down for a little while and do that. And it's something just enough to make me be like, maybe I'm not technically in a writing slump. [A.P. and Jamie laugh]
[KARLI] Yeah.
[JAMIE] This is fine.
[KARLI] Yeah, that's most of the time. Even if I am in a slump, or like over the summers and stuff, I'll try to work on something short or work on something for somebody else, like reading or editing or whatever, which is still like using those muscles. But—but yeah, this summer was different. There was nothing. [chuckles]
[JAMIE] A slump can mean different lengths of time to people because some of the like, tips for getting out of slumps are overly simplistic that I mostly think of for like, if your slumps aren't very long, maybe this could help you. Because it's like just: take a walk, go outside, experience nature. And that's like if you're having a year long writing slump, like I did once, that doesn't really help. [laughs]
[A.P.] Yeah, I mean, you can Google like how to get over writer's block, or like, there's just a ton of, you know, little tips and tricks that people always spout off and like your mileage may vary. [all chuckle] I think I think you're trying to get a more like, deeper seeded stuff. You know, just to keep talking about Atomic Habits, [Jamie laughs] re-listening to Atomic Habits, and Deep Work, has consistently helped me with all of my slumps. I'm hoping that's a little more specific, and people can actually use that.
[JAMIE] Yeah, actionable.
[A.P.] Yeah, and I think some of my friends have, like, I got some my friends to listen to it, and they got some use out of it. I, every time I listen to those books, I get something new from it, or I focus on a different aspect of it. And it's... it's just a nice, almost like comfort, safety blanket thing that's like encouraging but also gives me actionable things I can do. And it like kickstarts my brain a little bit. I don't know. Listening to those two books over and over again has been fantastic.
[KARLI] I agree. Atomic Habits more-so for me than Deep Work. I did enjoy deep work, but I don't know that I would listen to it again. Maybe, at some point, but I definitely am like 100% Atomic Habits.
[JAMIE] This is one of those things that you definitely would find on one of those lists on Google—but it is something that I stand by in and my own, where—get offline for a few days, stop scrolling, stop taking in garbage. [all chuckle] Not that it's all garbage, but it's a heavy majority, I have that under things that help with creative and motivation slumps, because you sometimes don't realize how much of your time is being sapped by that. And after two days of not being on that you find, hey, I have way more time to sit down and read or work or interact with life that fills me up with the energy and joy to keep doing this thing that I'm pretty sure I like doing. So I feel like getting offline is something. If you've never tried it, you should definitely give it a go. [chuckles]
[A.P.] Yeah, I mean, social media is designed specifically to be an endless scroll. So it's just so easy to just keep going. I know that you guys have been doing this for a while now. I only recently have put timers on things like TikTok. So after an hour of daily usage, it like pops up. And I'm like, alright, that's enough. No. [chuckles]
[JAMIE] I have mine set for like 15 minutes. Yes, sometimes I just hit that remind me in 15 minutes. But like, even if you don't get off, right, when it pops up having that thing keep popping up. It's like, oh, it popped up three times. I've been here for 45 minutes doing nothing. That always helps me because it also makes me feel like I've detoxed from other people's content. So that my brain has stopped focusing on external content, and I can start focusing on my internal art.
[A.P.] I don't know if you've experienced this too. But it's also made me a little more purposeful about when I'm scrolling and made it maybe a little more enjoyable, because I'll be like, okay, you know what, I'm gonna take a break. So I'm gonna go lie down on my bed and scroll. I'm like, that's what I'm gonna do. And it's not like, I'm at my desk, I've got my phone open, and I'm just kind of like multitasking or whatever. It's like, okay, I have a moment I'm taking a breath. I'm gonna go lie down and scroll for however long.
[JAMIE] Yeah. Because instead of like you said, the endless scroll of whatever. Now when I get on, I'm like, oh, I want to check on these people I know, or am friends with, or I'm interested in what they're doing. So I'm actually being more intentional. It makes it more enjoyable. Yeah, I agree.
[KARLI] Yeah, definitely.
[JAMIE] Another thing that I feel like I kind of learned from A.P., that helps—
[A.P.] Ooo.
[JAMIE] Write something short. It's, it's so easy to fall into a slump when you're writing like a giant novel. Write something short. And this is not so much from A.P., but it's from me is: Let it be bad. It doesn't matter if it's bad. Write garbage, as long as you're writing. So short garbage. [Jamie and A.P. chuckle] Better than nothing.
[A.P.] I think I know what you're saying. And what I tell myself kind of in that vein is: because it's short and because I'm not spending months or years on this, it doesn't matter if it is bad; and I can take risks and if it ends up being a waste of time I wasted you know, a day, five days just some—it doesn't matter.
[KARLI] Just a few. I agree with that as well. I feel like I have a suggestion that's maybe a little less actually writing... and doing something to take care of yourself because sometimes you're so in the thick of it that like you can't even write something short because mental health or whatever. So my recommendation is to drink more water and go to sleep. [A.P. chuckles] I mean, seriously, like go to sleep early or just lay there in the quiet in the dark. Seriously. Usually my slumps come also when I'm not taking care of myself mentally or physically. And it's really difficult to be creative when you're tired. And I get that like a lot of times we are all very tired because life just is demanding as hell; but we also do have control over like that whole phone thing like, we can choose to put the phone down and get an extra like—god, even if it's just an extra half hour—do what you can to take care of yourself and that tends to help a bit too.
[A.P.] Yeah, it's a massive scam that we are these flesh sacks that require [Karli laughs] upkeep and maintenance it's just—
[KARLI] But we do require maintenance and if we neglect that and ignore it for long enough; and we, you know, don't put things in that are good for us, we're gonna crap out. [laughs[ It's gonna happen.
[A.P.] Yeah, it literally can be that simple, of like getting enough sleep, hydrating enough, and like eating properly; which is the mother of all bullshit.
[JAMIE] So frustrating because like—Karli has already mentioned a couple times—it's like, you know the answer to a lot of the questions.
[JAMIE] Oh, yeah.
[JAMIE] It's just doing the thing.
[A.P.] [chuckles] Yeah.
[KARLI] I mean as simple, quote unquote as it is, that's hard to do sometimes. It's hard to get into new habits of taking better care of ourselves, because it's just so much easier to stay up late scrolling and eating crap and not drinking enough water because the coffee or whatever tastes better.
[A.P.] Yep.
[JAMIE] I really like is spending time with other creatives.
[A.P.] Definitely.
[JAMIE] Other people who are working towards a similar goal. That way, basically, you can just like motivate each other, like we've been doing this whole time.
[A.P.] I'm glad you mentioned that, because nothing helps a slump like commiseration.
[KARLI] [chuckles] Yeah.
[JAMIE] It's, it's bad. With NaNoWriMo right on the horizon, this is a great time if you don't have community, to find community, because there are so many participants, and there's lots of groups and chats get plugged into. If you don't already have a community, that is a great way to find one.
[KARLI] People are looking for community this time of year, more than I think almost any other time of year because of the NaNoWriMo thing. So I mean, like even if you're not going to participate in NaNoWriMo, like utilize that as a tool to like get yourself in with other creatives, if you need that.
[A.P.] Go to a like a NaNo launch party, just as like, even if you're not going to do it, or you're on the fence just like go to a local one, if they have them and just like soak in the vibes.
[JAMIE] Yeah. And there's a lot of online events, too, if you, if you absolutely don't have one in your area.
[A.P.] Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the people aspect of it. Because like, as we've touched on, a lot of this stuff is like mental. It's like mental barriers and all that. Externalizing all of this inner stuff to someone else who understands, not only organizes your own fears, and makes you put them in a coherent way, so you see what you're talking about. But also makes you feel less crazy because someone else understands you; and is like, yeah, totally, I absolutely get what you're going through, I've been through it myself. So you're no longer in like mental anguish alone, you are in shared anguish. [A.P. laughs]
[KARLI] Shared anguish. But there's something to that, because the isolation is like one of the biggest things that will compound your fears and anxieties. While writing is a very solitary act, it shouldn't be something that you keep to yourself. Sharing that with other people, absolutely. Like there's nothing like telling somebody, I'm struggling with being creative. And they're like, oof, I've been there. What can I do to help you out?
[JAMIE] And sometimes just being constantly in your own head, in your own loop, you need a distraction. You need one of the other things I was going to say is, help somebody else with their work. Like beta read for somebody, because the longer we spend isolated in our own heads, in our own loops. It just goes round and round and down.
[KARLI] Yeah.
[A.P.] Yeah. The ole downward spiral.
[KARLI] I have one more recommendation. Journal. Instead of write creatively. Sometimes the fantastical ideas just don't come. Or if they do they sound dumb as hell, and you can't bring yourself to write them because you got a mental block with it. Journaling almost always helps me break out of that feeling. It takes a while sometimes. Currently, it's taking a very long time. But I have been trying to show up and just journal and even if you just journal about how irritated you are with yourself—that's currently what I journaled about yesterday, so... [laughs] yeah.
[A.P.] Yeah, I've actually journaling my way out of an editing slump.
[KARLI] Nice.
[JAMIE] That ink coming out of the pen is just so soothing.
[KARLI] In out of the pen, typing words on a blank page, cues your brain back into that routine of we are, we are writing things down. [A.P. chuckles]
[JAMIE] Yeah, look at us go. I have a little section. [chuckles] I wrote pep talk. [A.P. chuckles] So writing slumps happen. It's no reason to throw in the towel. You started this for a reason. Maybe even if you have to go back and examine those reasons. If your motivations are different now, that's fine. I'm just saying don't, don't give up completely. Try not to compare yourself with others. Some people online especially show only highlights. That's fine. Some people show all the struggles. That's fine. It's up to individuals on what they share. Pretty much both ways you don't know what their scenario is. But comparison is a killer. Cut yourself some slack. But absolutely, there is a time when you need to give yourself a break and there's a time you need to push yourself. There is a good chance that if you are always giving yourself slack, you will hang your writing career with it.
[A.P.] Nice.
[JAMIE] That's my opinion.
[KARLI] I agree with all of that.
[A.P.] I disagree—no. [A.P. and Karli laugh]
[JAMIE] Because I'm like, I get it mental health is important. But some people need to be pushed. I need to push myself. If I don't push myself, I'm not going to get anywhere. So if every single time, I don't feel like it, I cut myself a break, I'm not helping myself at all.
[KARLI] Right.
[A.P.] For sure. We, we need to know what we need. And you know, when is enough, and when it's not enough.
[KARLI] It takes a lot of self awareness. And that's really hard. And that's something I think there's nothing like becoming a writer to learn who you are. [A.P. and Karli chuckle]
[JAMIE] And it takes years to know something about yourself sometimes. It's sad, but true, that you just like you're like, you know, after three years of not doing this, I finally figured out that it's because I don't function well. And I have to do this instead.
[KARLI] Instead. Mhmm. Definitely.
[JAMIE] It's [chuckles] so discouraging for any early writers. It's gonna take years for you to figure it out.
[A.P.] Yeah, all this shit just takes time. Which kind of leads into something that I just thought of a few minutes ago while you're talking. A friend of mine, I think a couple years ago now, Christopher Zerby, a great writer, one of my closest friends. And he's my writer group here in LA. He gave me a pep talk a couple of years ago, that—to boil it down and oversimplify it—he said climate, not weather. So slumps are weather, feeling shitty is weather, and like, off and all that. But if you're continuously making gains and making efforts when you can, and you're doing the best job that you can, you're moving in the right trajectory, and you will get the dividends that you're working towards. Even if you have slumps and obstacles, and even like backwards movement. It's an aggregate.
[KARLI] Yeah, creating a climate for yourself in which you can grow and thrive as a creative and understanding that like, wild weather is going to happen sometimes.
[A.P.] Yeah.
[KARLI] Even in that climate. Yeah, I love that.
[JAMIE] That also reminds me of and I think we'll all agree what will be the Two-cent Recommendation of this episode, Atomic Habits by James Clear, is that your efforts are compound interest. It's not a step by step by step. While it feels like it starts that way, eventually, you're going to hit a point of tripling return.
[JAMIE] Yeah.
[A.P.] Yeah. It's all compounded.
[JAMIE] And if you don't understand compound interest, I'm sure there's a Google or YouTube video that explains it.
[KARLI] Well, it multiplies. Like you think two times two is four, well, then you do four times. So he just keeps growing and growing and growing for those of you who don't want to google it, because that would be me. Just saying.
[JAMIE] Instead, you use a math metaphor, cool, Karli, whatever. [laughs]
[KARLI] Everybody understands four times four. Okay? Like, that's, that's— [A.P. and Jamie making skeptical noises] Okay. All right. [A.P. laughs] It doesn't matter. The point is, is it's a bigger number.
[JAMIE] Yeah.
[KARLI] That's all I'm saying.
[JAMIE] But yeah, that's what that reminds the climate thing creating, like, the more you work on your schedule, like we've also harped on a lot. The more you work on your schedule, the greater the return.
[A.P.] Mhmm.
[KARLI] And yes, I agree with that as the Two-cent Recommendation. Excellent work.
[JAMIE] Do you concur. Also read Deep Work. Deep Work by Cal Newport.
[A.P.] Yes.
[JAMIE] I am also going to have a second listen to Atomic Habits to get pumped up for the fall. Woo!
[KARLI] Yeah, I actually need to—I'm really glad that we talked about Atomic Habits so much. I am due for a re-listen as well. And I'm sure it will help me.
[JAMIE] Cool. You can find A.P. and read his work on his website, apthayer.com. And you can also find him on Twitter and Instagram @apthayer. You can find us at our website, scifiohmy.com/podcast, and the links to all of our social media are in the description of this episode. We are @theactbreak_podcast. Thanks for listening. And thank you A.P. for joining us yet again.
[KARLI] Thank you, A.P..
[JAMIE] Always a wealth of information. The Act Break podcast Season Two, now with 60% more A.P. Thayer.
[A.P.] That's too much me, even for me, you know— [A.P. and Karli laugh] I don't want to listen to myself on your podcast as much. [laughs]
[KARLI] See, you talk about how we talk down about ourselves and then you talk down about yourself. So...
[A.P.] This is your podcast.
[JAMIE] Yeah, we're a whole group of like, not all writers are like this, but a lot. I mean, self deprecation is kind of first nature.
[A.P.] Yeah, true.
[JAMIE] It's just the first thing you want to jump to. [Karli laughs] Because like, if everybody else knows I know like that great, then they're not going to be surprised when I'm not that great. [laugh]
[A.P.] Gotta set those expectations.
[JAMIE] Aim low and avoid disappointment. That's what my family always said.
[A.P.] Hmm. Might be something to unpack there. [A.P. and Karli laugh]
[JAMIE] Have a good week!
[A.P. and KARLI] Bye! [A.P. laughs]