S2 Ep.29 Video Game & Story with Izzy Kildonan
Video Games & Story - Transcript
[KARLI] I feel like I might be breaking out of my reading slump.
[JAMIE] What are you reading?
[KARLI] The Once and Future Witches.
[JAMIE] Oh, nice.
[KARLI] The crowd goes wild.
[JAMIE] I might be about to DNF the book I was looking forward to the most all year.
[KARLI] No! The um—
[JAMIE] The one.
[KARLI] The one. And you're gonna DNF it? Oh, gasp!
[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]
[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break where we're talking about all things story.
[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.
[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.
[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.
[INTRO MUSIC FADES]
[KARLI] Welcome back to The Act Break where we use any and all excuses to talk about our obsessions. I mean, mild interests. I am K.C. Ash, or Karli, writer and video game lover.
[JAMIE] And I am Jamie Redact. And my most hours played video game is LEGO Harry Potter. [Karli laughs]
[KARLI] I like the LEGO video games. We'll have to get into that more later.
[JAMIE] I played all through all the LEGO games. I—It's my cup of tea. [both chuckle] I'm not even I'm not even embarrassed.
[KARLI] Graciously indulging us today is internet friend, fellow writer and video game enthusiast. Izzy Kildonan.
[IZZY] Hi.
[KARLI] Is that how you say it? Hi!
[IZZY] How did you say it?
[KARLI] I said Kildonan. Is that?
[IZZY] No.
[KARLI] No. [laughs] Kildonan.
[IZZY] Yeah. It's alright, to be fair, you said it exactly how everyone else says it. It's just everyone wrong.
[KARLI] Well, I don't feel quite as bad about it then. [chuckles] Hi, I'm so glad you made it.
[IZZY] Thank you. I'm glad I could make it. Thank you for inviting me on.
[KARLI] Of course, of course.
[JAMIE] We will slowly just use up all of our resources with everybody we've ever met on Instagram. [all chuckle]
[KARLI] Yes.
[JAMIE] Lucky for us, we've met a lot of interesting and knowledgeable people. [chuckles] I'm excited that you're here is what I'm trying to say.
[KARLI] So we have known each other via Instagram for quite a while now.
[IZZY] Like four years.
[KARLI] I think it's been longer. [Izzy gasps] Wait.
[JAMIE] It has been longer because you beta read for me.
[IZZY] I did.
[JAMIE] Back in... what 2017?
[IZZY] Oh was it?
[KARLI] You also beta read for me.
[IZZY] I did.
[KARLI] In 2017 or 2018. So wait, what year are we in now?
[JAMIE] I don't know. 2075?
[IZZY] I'm pretty sure. Because I started writing my book in 2018. And then I met you guys in the writing community on Instagram. I think it was after.
[KARLI] Yeah. And I'm trying to remember, I feel like we talked to each other a little bit before you started reading for my novel, but it was just a little bit and then we really picked up after that.
[IZZY] Yeah, yeah.
[KARLI] And we talked a little bit more consistently. So that was like five years ago now.
[IZZY] Oh.
[KARLI] I know. [laughs] I know. Time flies.
[JAMIE] To be fair, the last three years don't really count.
[IZZY] No, no the last two, three years, that's just one year, isn't it?
[JAMIE] Yeah, that's my official stance.
[KARLI] Yeah, we'll just pretend like those don't exist. I mean, except for all of the like the gains that we've made in relationship, friendship. Obviously, we've all gotten to know each other better over the last couple of years. [Jamie laughs] So that counts, but like all the other trash doesn't count. So.
[JAMIE] I thought you were gonna say for all the gains we made in our writing, and then I was gonna be like, yeah, it really doesn't count. [laughs]
[KARLI] Oh, no. [all laugh]
[IZZY] What gains?
[JAMIE] Oh, but I'll take friendships, put me down for that.
[KARLI] It's been, it's been a while. And that's really awesome. But we actually get to chat with people on the podcast. And that's been really fun to actually get to dive in and get to know each other better. And talk about our obsessions, which today, we get to talk about video games; which I mean, I think the biggest video game enthusiast here is obviously Jamie. She's going to educate us. [chuckles]
[JAMIE] I've played all the LEGO Harry Potter's you guys that were themed off of movies that I had also seen. [Karli laughs] It's okay to be impressed.
[IZZY] I haven't played those. I've watched my kids play them. So does that count?
[KARLI] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I—I've played them a little bit. I find it very satisfying, like the noises in the game. Like when you pick up all, all the bricks?
[IZZY] Clickety clackety.
[KARLI] Yes. So today we're talking about video games, our interest in them, how much we play and really try to get a little bit more in depth with stories within the games and how they may have impacted us.
[JAMIE] So obviously we've joked about me playing LEGO games. I haven't been heavy into gaming for years. But I was wondering offhand like, what's the game? To you guys that like you play the most?
[IZZY] Skyrim.
[JAMIE] Skyrim?
[IZZY] Yeah, I think I got two to three thousand hours on that thing over multiple um, consoles, platforms.
[KARLI] I was gonna say I remember one day and your Instagram stories you like did a screenshot of your steam. [Izzy laughs] Your Steam account tells you how many hours you've played in a given game.
[IZZY] That was Elder Scrolls Online. Yeah.
[KARLI] Yeah.
[IZZY] Hit a thousand hours on that.
[KARLI] Yeah. And they're like, do you want to recommend this game?
[IZZY] Nah, it's shit. [laughs]
[KARLI] Like, nah, I don't like it. I've only spent a thousand hours here. Mine is World of Warcraft. So.
[IZZY] Oh, I never actually played, you know.
[KARLI] Yeah, it's probably better that you don't. [laughs] It'll suck you in and consume your life, as it does with everybody that I've talked to that plays it.
[IZZY] I've had that with other things. It's fine.
[KARLI] Yeah, exactly.
[IZZY] But like everyone I knew was playing it. I was like, neck deep in Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. So... [chuckles] didn't have any awareness of anything else.
[KARLI] Understandably.
[JAMIE] I've never personally played an RPG game. But I'm very familiar with Elder Scrolls Online, because my husband has logged on many hundred hours on Elder Scrolls Online. And I would be sitting next to him on the couch, reading a book or [chuckles] scrolling or whatever. So I'm like, That's all like, if I see it, I know what it is. I'm one of those like, I know things just through like osmosis. [laughs]
[IZZY] Yeah.
[KARLI] I would bet that your husband has into the thousands on hours on that one.
[JAMIE] Maybe, yeah, I mean, you know, you know how it goes.
[KARLI] No, I mean, no judgment. I don't know how much time I have played in game time throughout. I actually thought about sitting down to do the math, because you can type in like slash played or whatever in game, but it doesn't total it like in steam for you. It's easy. Steam just tells you how many hours you've played in, WoW. Or maybe there's another way to do it. I don't know. But you have to actually type it out per character. And then it'll tell you there's probably an add on. I don't know I'm bad at that.
[IZZY] Sounds like a headache.
[KARLI] But I've been playing it off and on since 2006. And it's consumed my life and you know, flunked out of college and many other fun things. [chuckles]
[IZZY] Oh, yeah.
[JAMIE] My dog ate my homework [all laugh] kind of vibe.
[KARLI] I stayed up too late last night raiding. Didn't make it to class. Sorry about it.
[JAMIE] So both of you pretty much, it's RPGs.
[IZZY] Mostly.
[KARLI] Yeah. Yeah, I mostly play MMORPGs. Which is massively multiplayer online role playing games. So like World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls Online.
[JAMIE] So it for like the super, let's call them gaming novices. That would be like, you get on, you create your own character. You create your own avatar, you're choosing what race, what faction, all these things.
[IZZY] Yeah.
[JAMIE] And then you're, you know, role playing.
[KARLI] Yeah.
[JAMIE] With many, many people online.
[JAMIE] The magical world. Second, second life. [Izzy and Jamie chuckle]
[KARLI] Yes.
[KARLI] I just wanted to circle back to the what our experience with video games has been. And so I think though, that we made that pretty clear that like Jamie's not a hardcore gamer.
[JAMIE] When I was like deep into gaming, I was playing first person shooter.
[IZZY] Yeah, yeah.
[JAMIE] LAN party style, Halo, Call of Duty, that sort of thing. But yeah, I was I was I've never actually played an MMO.
[IZZY] I hadn't either before Elder Scrolls Online. To be honest. I've never been an online gamer. And I only ended up on that one. Because it's Elder Scrolls. [chuckles]
[KARLI] Right? Right. [chuckles] Yeah. They sucked a lot of people into the online gameplay because of that.
[IZZY] Yeah. I mean, they could release anything slap the Elder Scrolls sticker on it and I'll play it.
[JAMIE] Take my money.
[KARLI] That's—
[IZZY] Yeah.
[KARLI] My husband too, he'll play anything that they've got.
[IZZY] I complain about how much they're like Bethesda, been releasing Skyrim for absolutely everything, but I've still gone and bought it every time, haven't I?
[KARLI] [laughs] Yeah, yep. Understandable.
[JAMIE] Now that we kind of have an idea of where we each land in the, like the I don't know what to call it. The the scale of gaming experience slash knowledge. [Karli chuckles] I feel like it'd be a good idea to give our guests the opportunity we usually do. But I got real excited about questions. But would you mind sharing, Izzy, about your creative journey and your experience?
[KARLI] We would love to hear more.
[IZZY] Right, with writing and everything, yeah?
[KARLI] Yeah, or anything that you like to, would like to share creatively.
[IZZY] Okay, so I've been writing well, I started writing when I was a kid. Wrote a lot of started stories, never got more than two, three chapters in kind of thing. Never knew how to get any further than that. When I was a teenager, I did a lot of gaming, I did a lot of message—do you remember like the old like message board RPGs? Did you ever do a those?
[KARLI] Little bit? Little bit. But yeah.
[IZZY] Did a lot of that. Did a bit of fan fiction. And again, that was always like related to gaming as well. Went off writing for a while, didn't write for years. And when I got back into it again, that was through gaming, and fanfiction related to gaming. And then I had my, I let my partner read my fanfiction, and he liked it for some reason. [chuckles] And somehow managed to convince me or it's good enough at writing to like, do my own thing, write my own book. So, that's where I'm at now.
[KARLI] That's awesome.
[JAMIE] That's a good partner, who can inspire you and support you.
[IZZY] Yeah, nice. Nice partner. [chuckles]
[KARLI] Yeah.
[JAMIE] There's always a reason we ask specific people to talk about specific things with us. And it's also so cool that it shows that gaming can like spark a creative.
[IZZY] Yes.
[JAMIE] Like, everybody's inspiration or whatever can come from all sorts of places.
[KARLI] Yeah.
[IZZY] A lot of people, I think, you know, come to writing through reading. And there was a little bit of that for me, you know, since being like five and discovering that writing the book was actually a thing that you could do. [chuckles] But it was really gaming, that did it for me, because I played like, I said, The Elder Scrolls games. And that world is so massive, it's so immersive. It's so detailed, like, the level of lore, it's just crazy. And what I really wanted to do was to build my own world like that, and to write my own stories with my own characters in a world like that. But like, the most accessible way for me to do that was to write a book.
[KARLI] Yes. I love that.
[JAMIE] That's awesome. Yeah, it's a really great point. Because even just the three of us, Karli was a reader as a child, which brought her to it. I started writing because of movies. And you started because of video games.
[IZZY] Oh, that's cool.
[JAMIE] I'm the opposite of you. I don't, like if you want to, like create a giant world and all this lore. I'm like, I'm gonna figure that out later. [Izzy and Jamie laugh]
[IZZY] I did actually do a lot of that. Four years later, and I'm in a lot of trouble. [Jamie and Karli laugh] of doing that world building backwards.
[JAMIE] The beauty of epic fantasy writing is that you have like, so much space.
[IZZY] Yeah.
[KARLI] Because, yeah, because the readership does want the world building. So they show up for that. Yeah, I love that you got into writing epic fantasy more because of your love for video games. And I think a lot of the times people that I talk to when they find out that I play video games think usually like the shooter games, and they don't really have much understanding or knowledge of games that have a deeper and richer story. And not to say that the shooter games don't, because there are several out there that actually do have really in depth storytelling to them, especially more and more as time goes on. But the kinds of games that we play, tend to get really deep into, and what we mean by lore, I mean, we mean like Silmarillion level, backstory sprinkled throughout, and the deep texture of this character coming back or being hinted at for a future thing, and it's lots of foreshadowing, and it feels like you are immersed in an epic fantasy series.
[IZZY] You are in that world.
[KARLI] Yeah, so that's, that's very cool. Actually. The lore in like World of Warcraft, that experience for me is actually one of the things that helps keep me inspired, in world building and stuff like that.
[IZZY] Yeah!
[KARLI] Because I want to create a world that massive for me it is more accessible, like you said, for how my brain works to think of it in terms of a video game than it is for Silmarillion because I've tried to read Silmarillion and I'm like, dude, these names are all too similar. And I'm struggling love Lord of the Rings, so much respect for Tolkien. But like, wow, and it's easier for me to get a grasp of how I want to do it through playing video games.
[IZZY] Yeah, yeah I totally hear you.
[JAMIE] It seems like it's a much more accessible because it's immersive. You're right there. The story unfolds before you. You have visual aids you have all these things, whereas you know, the Silmarillion it's one written a long time ago, written into different style. Also super complex, like me and my husband recently been like looking at family tree charts. [Karli laughs] How plus get like, it's like having the other the other things that video games bring to the table. Help that that richness and also understanding of like this crazy long and in depth history that's being written and provided to players.
[JAMIE] You kind of get to experience it or you know, like, there's like mysteries or...
[IZZY] You don't just get the whole lot sort of dumped on your feet and like, right, you got to read through all of this. [all laugh]
[IZZY] The way it sets up, as well, because you know, you're the player character, you're just introduced to this world. So like, your character is often kind of introduced as a new—as a newcomer to the world. You get to talk to NPCs, and so on, like, and ask questions that, you know, in, in the media or writing that would be like, "as you know, Bob" type questions. [chuckles] But like, you can do that in the game.
[JAMIE] Yeah, that reminds me a lot of like, Assassin's Creed. You're new to the situation. But you're dropped into it.
[IZZY] Yeah.
[JAMIE] Dropped into the past in that one.
[KARLI] Yeah. And I think that depending on the game, how that happens, how that information is delivered, is different, based on what game you're in. So...
[IZZY] Yeah.
[JAMIE] Much, much like books, everything is—you're gonna get something for everyone.
[KARLI] Yes, absolutely. Your level of immersion and interaction and the amount of effort that you have to put into learning and understanding the lore actually affecting the game around you, versus just you can skip all that stuff and still get to the end, and it doesn't really matter. I hate saying it doesn't really matter, because I think anybody who's made a video game with a ton of lore, and the people who skip the lore drives me nuts. [laughs]
[IZZY] Skipping the cutscenes.
[KARLI] Skipping the cutscenes or they like—
[IZZY] I can't—I can't watch someone gaming where they skip the cutscenes. Like, why? Stop!
[KARLI] Why?
[IZZY] How do you know what's going on?
[KARLI] You get a free mini movie and you get to learn all of this cool stuff, I don't understand. I don't understand. And they just, they just want the cool gear at the end or whatever. And I'm like, ah, you're hurting me. So I mean, I think it's probably pretty clear already with how we've talked, but like the does the story in a video game impact your enjoyment of it? Like, are you able to get into a video game, even if the story isn't super involved or engaging? Or is that pretty much like you would just DNF a book? Just a no, thanks.
[IZZY] Depends on the game, doesn't it? Sometimes you don't want a game that's too involved. Like especially you know, when you're growing up, and you've got a job and kids and they've got all this going on, and you've only got like 15 minutes to game anyway. And like, I don't know if it's the same with you and World of Warcraft, but I cannot sit down and play Skyrim for 15 minutes. I can't do it. I will get sucked in. I have missed, like lose track of time, two hours will pass, oh shit. [Izzy and Karli laugh]
[IZZY] Uh, yeah. There is no just real quick. There's no real quick.
[IZZY] But some games you can do that with but they're like the less sort of story.
[JAMIE] Or like puzzle games. Because that's like when I play a LEGO game. It's like, I'm not planning to sit down for a long time because it's like, I'm just running around picking crap up. [Izzy and Jamie chuckle] I can log off whenever there's no story there.
[IZZY] You didn't get too sucked in. No. And that's fine. Like sometimes. That's what you need. You don't need something that's telling a story. But all my favorite games do have really intense, detailed, awesome stories. The Elder Scrolls games, I've [laughs] When you said to me, hey, do you want to come and do like a video game podcast? I was like, don't turn it into an Elder Scrolls podcast. [Karli laughs]
[KARLI] I mean, if that's your favorite, I knew we'd talk about it a lot. So it's totally fine. [laughs]
[JAMIE] I find a way to bring up the Avatar The Last Airbender in every episode.
[IZZY] You do. Yeah.
[JAMIE] So don't, don't worry about it. Did it again. [all laugh]
[KARLI] Yeah, don’t, don't shy away from it. Like, that's why we asked you because we know you're a gamer. We know you're really involved and interested. And that's the kinds of conversations we like to have is with people who are interested. So have at it.
[JAMIE] Yeah, and if that's the game that you have the experience from, that's the game you have experienced from.
[KARLI] Exactly.
[IZZY] Awesome. Right two hour TED talk then on Elder Scrolls lore. [all laugh]
[KARLI] Perfect. Perfect.
[JAMIE] You could talk for two hours but I'm gonna cut it down to 10 minutes. [all laugh]
[IZZY] Ah, damn. With uh, Elder Scrolls, right. Skyrim is like I say it's my my favorite game of all time. I played that game to death and I will continue to do so. But the story was... simplified. I don't know if that's the right word. But it is definitely like all the stories that you've got the main quest, you got your guild quests and everything. They're all shortened, simplified, much less detail, much less character. So I've got annoyed and everything. For whatever reason. And it makes me quite sad really that more people don't play like Oblivion and Morrowind. Because I mean, fair, you look at them now. Graphics are shite. [Izzy and Karli laugh] It's quite painful to look at. But the stories in those games are absolutely incredible. You have the main quest, which was so long, but like so engaging, and intriguing. And like I say, all the guild quests are like, way long as well. And then you have like a million little side quests and so on.
[KARLI] But you uh, the interaction, you become engaged, even though it's long.
[IZZY] It's super engaging.
[KARLI] The engagement level you have with that.
[IZZY] Whereas like a lot of the questions in Skyrim now are like, oh, go to this cave and find this sword, and bring it back to me, and here you go, here's two hundred gold. That's not engaging! [laughs]
[JAMIE] The magic is gone.
[KARLI] And I love that you brought that up, because I wanted to talk about like, storytelling as like an interactive art form. And what that does for us, in engagement level, and World of Warcraft has a similar thing going on right now where like, they've been around for frickin' forever. And so they've had expansion after expansion, which is, like another book is being released in the series that's enriching the world. But they've kind of tanked the game in a lot of people's opinion, in my mine included, where they've really started to ruin the story. But then they went back and they re-released the original content to play completely separately on completely separate servers. And you can pretend like all of that didn't exist. And it's been glorious. [Izzy laughs] And we're like, days away from my favorite expansion ever being relaunched. And I'm like, a little kid at Christmas. It's ridiculous.
[IZZY] That's awesome.
[KARLI] But um, but yeah, that whole idea of things being over simplified, I think is a similar reaction that I have noticed a lot of readers have to when a book is turned into a movie.
[IZZY] Oh, yeah. I say you can kind of understand why because you know, you got to take a what, five hundred page, whatever book and squeeze it into two and a half—two, two and a half hour film. But with the game, I feel like [audibly cringes and Karli laughs] come on.
[JAMIE] I have a question. Because I don't know a lot about like the gaming industry or the behind the scenes of like, corporate gaming. So do you think that, is it possible that one of the reasons like you were talking about how it's like the quests are simplified, the stories are simplified, go pick this up, then we'll give you that, is partly for monetary reasons. Because so many people that are logging on, they just want to give them whatever hit of dopamine they want for getting something to keep them on for longer?
[IZZY] With Skyrim, I'm not too sure. Because I don't know, it's not a logging on game, you know.
[JAMIE] I guess I was thinking more like with the MMOs.
[IZZY] Yeah, I could definitely see that being with the MMOs.
[KARLI] For the MMOs. I think that that is definitely a factor. I think that they're trying to draw from a wider audience and a wider pool of people. And they're attracting new people for sure. But they're not retaining the people who have stuck around, who enjoy the more involved in them. The people who like to work for what they get. The... I think of an old school game—gamer mentality
[IZZY] Yeah.
[KARLI] Of desiring to work really hard for what you get.
[JAMIE] Kind of seems like it's like that same thing that you see in different industries where they're taking something kind of considered an art form, and monetizing it to the point it's been over simplified to where it becomes content.
[KARLI] Yep.
[IZZY] With Skyrim I felt like it was to maybe, to get the Elder Scrolls franchise reaching a more mainstream audience that they have done that monetizing with it. Like I said, re-releasing it for every platform on Earth.
[JAMIE] Yeah.
[KARLI] They really have.
[IZZY] And while, in the meantime, like longtime Elder Scrolls fans, they're like, we don't want this. We want remastered Morrowind, why aren't you giving us remastered Morrowind? [all laugh]
[KARLI] That's true, isn't it? Yeah. So I have very little experience with Skyrim. I did try to play it on the console, but I am not very good at console gaming. PlayStation specifically. I was like a Nintendo kid growing up and Xbox. That's what I grew up on. And then when I married my husband, he's always been a PlayStation guy. He had a Playstation and all I had was my old Nintendo 64. So and so I was like, I guess I'll learn how to play on the PlayStation, shouldn't be too hard for my brain to change over. False. [laughs] I am not good at PlayStation games, I—the control—I don't know what it is my brain is wired.
[IZZY] It's two different layouts, innit?
[KARLI] It's two different layouts. And my brain is wired for the other and I cannot unlearn it for some reason. [chuckles] So I didn't play much of it. But when I did play Elder Scrolls Online, I noticed that they changed the introduction. And I was mad. And I was like, and I barely played it.
[IZZY] Oh yes, yeah. Every time they released a new chapter, you get a new introduction with it. And it made me mad, because when I first really got into it, it took me a few goes, that one. When I first really got into it, it was the intro for the Morrowind DLC, but I loved that. But then when I went back with a new character, I was like, it's not that anymore.
[KARLI] Yeah.
[IZZY] What the hell. Why have you done this?
[KARLI] Yeah. What have you done? Just make it available still. Make it an option or something, I don't know. I want it back.
[IZZY] The best thing with ESO is when you go into—you're like, okay, cool, got two hours to play. Let's do this. And you go on how you load it up. And it's like updating. [Karli gasps] And that's, that's, that's your game time, gone. Service down for maintenance. And that's always, always it's because it's during American night time. [Izzy and Karli laugh] So it's always during my gaming time. [laughs]
[JAMIE] There was many times my husband called on his way home from work and was like, will you turn on the PlayStation and make sure that my game is updated? So that when I get home I can play. [all laugh] Yes, yes, I can do that for you.
[KARLI] Yep, I have definitely done that, too. That's really funny. Yeah, there's nothing like an update or server maintenance to really screw up your scheduled game time. Especially when you're trying to be a responsible adult. When you're obsessed with video games on the level that we're obsessed with video games, like you have to manage that intake or you will ruin your life. Trust me. I've done it. Like you don't have to go out and try it. Just don't do it.
[JAMIE] I mean, as per example, Karli's used the word obsessed about seven times this episode. [laughs]
[KARLI] That's the word of the day.
[JAMIE] The word that comes forth. [Karli laughs]
[IZZY] I understand that. Yeah. Ah, yeah, I really, really want to play Elden Ring.
[KARLI] [dramatic whisper] Oh my god!
[IZZY] And I know if I do that, no one will see me or hear from me for like six months. And eventually I'll like crawl out of my bat cave. Like a neanderthal.
[KARLI] Yes!
[JAMIE] That is the only game that I've seen that I'm like, maybe I should... uh? No! Don't, Don't do that. You have other, you have other things you're supposed to be doing.
[IZZY] Don't do it, don't do it. [laughs]
[JAMIE] That I'm not doing already.
[IZZY] You have responsibilities.
[JAMIE] I don't need another reason not to be writing.
[IZZY] Exactly. Yeah.
[KARLI] The only reason that I don't play that one more is because I am much more of an MMO person. I'm a very like, social gamer. So like I want to play with other people. If that was like a true MMO, I would be ruined. I would be ruined like it's because it is—it is what you think it's going to be. It will if you get into it, it'll be bad, don't do it. [Izzy laughs] Enjoy the art from afar just, just protect yourself.
[IZZY] Luckily, it's still way too expensive.
[KARLI] Yes, games are expensive, but—but it's so much story and like I get it. I get why they cost what they cost because reasons. But yeah, expensive.
[IZZY] With story in video games. The other one I wanted to mention was the Witcher. Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, specifically. I was well late to the party with that game. I mean, it came out like six years ago, but only played it last year. But the story in that is incredible. It's absolutely incredible. And now I'm reading the books, now nearly finished the series. And yeah, they got the characters so right. The stories, like the world it's—they just got everything 100% perfect, it's incredible.
[KARLI] That's awesome. I've been nervous to try the Witcher for the same reason that you're nervous to try Elden Ring, [Izzy and Karli laugh] because the level of obsession I'll have with it.
[IZZY] The good thing with Witcher is that it does end eventually.
[KARLI] That's good.
[IZZY] You don't have this endless stream of map to explore and side quests to pick up and NPCs to talk to. Like you can complete it. That's quite a reasonable goal. [chuckles
[KARLI] That's good to know.
[JAMIE] We've mentioned a lot about the richness of the story in the world but for people who don't understand what that means, because they haven't played it I understand because I know from watching other people but Izzy talked about it some, about how like there's a main quest. There's usually one main storyline like you would in a book, one main goal. It's like the journey that you as the character, being the protagonist of the story, are working towards said goal or going through an arc or accomplishing something. And then where it gets really in depth with video games is side quests, or a la B stories. Then it turns into [chuckles] a massive, never ending, choose your own adventure novel.
[KARLI] Yeah. [chuckles]
[JAMIE] Where you get to choose which side quests you do, not only do you do those quests, but a lot of the times you get to choose whether you're going to be a good guy, or you're going to be a bad guy. And then the decisions you make impact the rest of the story that you experience.
[KARLI] Depending on the game, yes.
[JAMIE] Depending on the game. So I could see why the story, or the world, is so detailed, and there is so much backstory, because it has to be, because everybody's going to make different choices, and then they're going to send you down different paths. So that's a lot of writing and a lot of story to kind of factor in.
[IZZY] Mhmm.
[JAMIE] So for any listeners who haven't played games and don't have much experience, that's what we mean, when we talk about how deep the rabbit hole can go. [chuckles]
[KARLI] Yeah. [Izzy chuckles]
[JAMIE] And games, like World of Warcraft, when they're releasing an expansion, like Karli, you mentioned, like, it's like releasing the next book in the series. It's like it's gonna give you all this more lore, it's gonna give you all these more options.
[KARLI] There's another huge story arc to complete and you get to participate in it. And I think that's why people get so involved is, it's as much enjoyment as reading a book. But then you get to actively participate in whatever the end goal of that next expansion or the next level of content that's coming out.
[JAMIE] Oh, Izzy, let me know if this is correct, because I'm just recalling from when my husband played Elder Scrolls Online, there are some quests where like, eventually, towards the end of it, he had to choose whether to take a potion, and it actually ended up changing his character's gender, I think there was one where he had to play as a skeleton.
[IZZY] Yeah I remember that. [chuckles]
[JAMIE] He was a skeleton.
[IZZY] That messed me up. Because that happened and I was like, oh, no. [laughing] What have you done to me?
[KARLI] Yeah. Or like, you can become like a vampire or you if not, then you have to go seek out the cure. And like there's, there's so much that can happen to you, and around you in video games, and that definitely impact what actually happens.
[JAMIE] That's why it reminds me of like, the equivalent of a Choose Your Own Adventure because your choices impact what, what ultimately happens, as opposed to there are some video games where the story is the story, and you accomplish the one goal they give you. And then you move to the next you know, the next thing. And when it's all played out, everybody, whoever played it, the story looks the same, but it doesn't always look the same.
[KARLI] Right? Yeah, World of Warcraft is much more of the story is the story. And, and your involvement looks like most everybody else's involvement. But yeah.
[IZZY] The Witcher is different. If you look on any online spaces, where they talk about the rich and you get a lot of people discussing what kind of ending they got, what political ending they got. Whether they got one of the good endings or the bad endings or...
[KARLI] Or like Mass Effect is a lot like that, where you you can have different things happen as the story goes, so.
[IZZY] I—I guilt quit The Witcher, on my first play through.
[JAMIE] [chuckles] You made some choices?
[IZZY] I made some choices. [Jamie laughs] It was I'm not going to like spoil anything. But very early on, you are given this absolutely brutal decision to make, like your options are bad or bad, you know. And I went with one and I carried on through and I carried on playing and I got to like the end, it wasn't until like the end of that chapter of the entire game where like the sort of the full extent, the consequences of that one decision, thirty hours [laughs] came to light. And then I felt so bad. I felt so guilty. [Jamie and Karli laugh] I couldn't live with myself.
[KARLI] [laughs] You're like, I'm a horrible person!
[IZZY] Forty hours of game play down the drain. I quit and I started again.
[KARLI] Oh my god.
[JAMIE] That's kind of awesome. But yeah, I just wanted to touch on that because I'm like, that's like so intense.
[IZZY] It is, yeah.
[KARLI] Yeah.
[JAMIE] And if you've never like played that yourself, or watched somebody play that, you're like, I don't know video games. [laughs]
[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it's not just like people running around shooting each other or just like, you know, old school Mario Kart, or platform gaming, which those have their enjoyment and their space and I—I love a good platform game. Fell in love with my husband LAN partying, and Call of Duty. So it's like those, those are all great games.
[IZZY] [laughing] That's awesome.
[KARLI] I feel like we could go on forever and ever and ever about all of these different things and get into the nuances of different games and reward systems and all of that kind of stuff. But this podcast apparently does have to end at some point. So I'm curious whether for good or ill has playing games, or particular sorts of games had an impact on writing your own stories? I know you mentioned earlier about like the level of world building and the desire to have that kind of lore. But has there been other things for you?
[IZZY] Yes. So like I said earlier, that was, you know, I kind of came to writing through the gaming and the world building and everything. Some—sometimes that is detrimental or has been detrimental, because, you know, we writers have these shaky moments of self doubt, and impostor syndrome and everything. And then sometimes I manage to get myself into a hole of the world I build is never going to be as amazing as this world that was built for this massive gaming franchise by an entire team of people. [all laugh]
[JAMIE] Imagine that.
[KARLI] That thought is so relatable, it hurts. [laughs]
[IZZY] So it can be an easy trap to fall into though you know you're trying, you know you've got to try and remember to be logical. But at the same time, it's also helped a lot because like, in a gaming world, like World Warcraft, or any of the Elder Scrolls game, or you know, like the Witcher, anything like that, it's because it's so immersive. And like every little detail around you from like, the place names and the communities and the population, the different types of people, you have temples, you have religions, you have, you have like drinks, alcoholic drinks, they've all got their own things and everything that you can build a world as immersive in the same way, but putting on those details as well, if that made any sense at all.
[JAMIE] I totally get what you're saying. Because the answer was in the question that you said, like they have teams of people. [Izzy laughs] When you're writing, like, yeah, we have people that like, read for us or whatever.
[KARLI] But we're the team.
[JAMIE] There's so much to keep track of like, I don't remember what I called that city that they were in, I don't remember what that drink was called. But then these things like when it's released to the masses, you have hundreds of people looking at it. Then of course, people who are like deep into gaming, like you can go on the internet and find somebody who knows all the facts. And then as crowdsourced information comes out, it's like, these things don't line up. I'm only one person. I couldn't remember what I called it. [chuckles] So when as writers we get into our own heads to be like, if everything is not completely perfect, somebody will find it. Because that's true.
[KARLI] I visualize Reddit threads tearing apart the book that I have yet to write.
[KARLI] Oh. [laughs] Don't go on Reddit. Thtat's the—
[JAMIE] We should all be so lucky.
[IZZY] That's what makes me nervous talking about the Elder Scrolls. It's because I have been on the Elder Scrolls Reddit and it's not—it's not a pretty place at the best of times.
[KARLI] No. [laughs] Yeah, I feel that. WoW is not great with that either. [Izzy and Karli laugh] Yeah, it made perfect sense. And I find that very relatable like you, you want so badly to give people an experience like what you experienced. You love it so much. And so you want to share it with people, but you want people to feel the way you feel about that world about your world.
[IZZY] Yes.
[KARLI] And the pressure is so intense.
[IZZY] Yeah, yeah, It’s—even, even Tolkien—he was still world building when he died. [chuckles] That's gonna happen to thee rest of us as well. [all chuckle]
[KARLI] So yeah, we're gonna die we're all building.
[IZZY] Still can't decide the origin of this one race. [Karli laughs] Mulling over it on my deathbed.
[KARLI] Video games have been good for me and a lot of ways and creativity and stuff like that and just creative drive. But they've been bad for me, bad quote, unquote, because I can never make a final decision because I like too many options because quests, they branch out and all of that stuff. And so I am constantly side questing in my own writing and my own stories. [Izzy laughs] I can't make decisions because of that.
[IZZY] I have—I have a fear of commitment with my stories and my world building but I think in a slightly different way where like, I can't decide to name just name a town just—just give it this one name.
[KARLI] Because what if it's bad?
[IZZY] Because next year, we might look back and go that's a shit name. [all chuckle]
[KARLI] Right. You judge yourself for it in advance.
[IZZY] And then once it's published, you can't just work on your own stuff like that. If you've got your own world, you've got all those—yeah, you've got to make a decision about what story, what side quests to stick with, now how many side quests are included with the main quest and you've got to limit yourself with that. I know that's painful. I wrote over 300,000 word book, okay. You know. But because you have this world, you have the opportunity for other stories, just because you can't include this side quest now, doesn't mean you can't make it the main quest in another book later on.
[KARLI] Right. Or in a novella.
[IZZY] In a novella, in an anthology. Yeah.
[JAMIE] That's the thing to hold on to like, especially if you're writing an epic fantasy where you're like, building an entire world is like, this won't be my only opportunity to visit this world.
[IZZY] Yeah.
[JAMIE] Someday, I will also have what I call an epic space fantasy. And it's like, when there's an idea or an offshoot, I have to be like, does this go here? Or does this go in a notebook for somewhere else in my universe? Because I can't write a 300,000 word book. [laughs] I'll die. [Karli laughs] But it's like, you have to just like remind yourself that you're like, oh, I own and have created this world. I can come back to it whenever I want.
[IZZY] Yeah, definitely.
[KARLI] That sounds so logical. [laughs]
[JAMIE] It's not easy. I'm just saying.
[IZZY] It's not, especially if it's like the book I'm writing at the moment. This is like my first proper, I said, proper. That the first original work that I have completed a draft of. Yet, it was really hard to resist the temptation to be like, I want to put everything in it. [laughing] Absolutely everything.
[KARLI] Relatable.
[IZZY] And now I've got to pull things back. And it's painful.
[KARLI] And it's difficult to remind yourself like what you were saying, Jamie. It's not deleted, it's save it for later.
[IZZY] Mmm, yeah.
[KARLI] Any final thoughts that anybody had about video game things they would like to touch on? I mean, I know we could keep going forever, Izzy, but...
[IZZY] Most of the notes I've got down here like, oh, this game, this game, this game, this game. [Izzy and Karli laughing] Let's talk about this game!
[KARLI] You and I can meet up again and have just like another chat about all of this.
[JAMIE] But the beauty of it is, at least you get to give us your Two-cent Recommendation.
[IZZY] I've got two.
[JAMIE] Two for one, perfect.
[KARLI] We love a two for one.
[IZZY] I've got the two-cent one. And then I've got the five dollar one.
[KARLI] Ohoho! Nice!
[IZZY] My two cent is, The Wolf Among Us, which I feel like is a criminally underrated game. I've never heard anyone in my circles talk about it before.
[KARLI] I have heard of it. I've not looked into it at all.
[IZZY] We're talking about story telling in gaming. This us is such a perfect example of that. It's the animation is weird. It's like a sort of comic book style animation. And there's not much like action or anything like that. There are like fight scenes, but they're like oh, you know, press this button at the right time to do the move or whatever. Most of it is all story and dialogue. And it's decisions that you make. And basically, it's like, you have all these fairytale creatures and people who have been taken into the real world. They all live in Manhattan for some reason. Because in books almost everything tastes place in Manhattan. [all laugh] And they have to like live among humans, just like normal people. And they have like glamours and things like that. And they've just got to try and get by like as normal as they can. And you play Bigby, who is the Big Bad Wolf, but he's like the sheriff. It's fantastic the way they have taken these fairytales and put them into the real world the way they have. It's so clever and it's so dark. Because loads are these fairy tales do have really dark, brutal origins.
[JAMIE] Yep. Grimm’s Fairy Tales.
[KARLI] Fairy tales are dark.
[IZZY] Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, like the choices you make will massively affect the story and the way it goes and everything and the ending and yeah. I think this story, you just play it for the story. It's incredible.
[JAMIE] I got it written—I'll write that down.
[KARLI] Nice. Oh, yeah, I'm definitely going to be checking on it.
[IZZY] More people need to play that one is so good. And my $5 recommendation is The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, partly because I couldn't not recommend an Elder Scrolls game. [all chuckle]
[KARLI] That's completely fair.
[IZZY] Also, I completely understand why people would be put off by playing it, like the graphics or not right. They have not aged well, the game generally has not aged well.
[JAMIE] I think that one of the things that always puts me off from starting a game like that is how long it takes to build up your character.
[IZZY] It does.
[JAMIE] Because I'm gonna be so far behind anybody I play with.
[KARLI] It's reasonable. A lot of people feel that way.
[IZZY] It's yeah. Morrowind it's very hard to level it's hard to get anywhere. It's hard to walk. Because there's no fast travel. You have to walk everywhere. And your character is slow. [chuckles]
[KARLI] But I think that that's also the... the excitement that I have is getting—like, I earned that.
[IZZY] Yes.
[KARLI] And it feels so satisfying.
[IZZY] Oh, yeah.
[KARLI] To have put that effort in.
[IZZY] Amazing, but the story is yeah, the story is fantastic. The lore is fantastic. The way the sort of classic fantasy tropes are shown or used is in like a really nuanced way. It's a really, really clever take on those tropes. I think I mentioned to you, didn't I, the chosen one trope in Morrowind, before?
[KARLI] Yes.
[IZZY] Yeah. So there's my recommendations, The Wolf Among Us, and Elder Scrolls Morrowind.
[JAMIE] Thank you.
[KARLI] I love it. Yeah, those are fantastic recommendations. I have not played Morrowind. But I have seen a little bit of it here and there, and I am very intrigued. I just will need to—can you get that on PC? Or is it just console?
[IZZY] Oh, yeah, if you've got Steam.
[KARLI] I do.
[IZZY] It's all on Steam, and it's super cheap as well.
[KARLI] Well, then I'll actually try it. I am way better at PC games. [chuckles]
[IZZY] Keep me updated. I'd love to hear what you think.
[KARLI] Yes, I will. Thank you so much, Izzy. We really, really appreciate you taking the time to come and geek out with us. It's like my favorite thing about this podcast. And I'm so glad that you were able to take the time to do that.
[IZZY] Thank you so much for inviting me on.
[JAMIE] And thank you for the recommendations.
[IZZY] You're very welcome.
[KARLI] You can find Izzy on social media @itkildonan. Follow her and check out her updates on her writing and the really rad like, vibey music and stuff that she always shares, which is one of my favorite things. And you can find us @theactbreak_podcast. And all of the links for our social media and website are in the description of this episode. Don't forget to follow and subscribe to the podcast. Thank you so much for listening.
[JAMIE] Thanks for being here, everybody. Bye.
[KARLI]
Bye.