S2 Ep.23 Dialogue with A.P. Thayer

Dialogue - Transcript

[JAMIE] The game is afoot.

[KARLI] The show has begun.

[A.P.] How many drinks does everyone have today?

[JAMIE] I literally just finished my coffee. So now I only have water. So it's not going well.

[A.P.] I went for the three. I was like, I'm going for it.

[KARLI] Oh, nice. What do you have?

[A.P.] Ice water, coffee, and a sparkling icy.

[KARLI] Oh, where do you get a sparkling icy?

[A.P.] I don't know my friend flew into town for the writers retreat and that's his mixer of choice so we had leftover, [chuckles] and I'm just drinking it.

[KARLI] Delightful.

[JAMIE] I didn't know this was a thing until I learned recently you could get like Red Bull slushies. And I don't usually drink energy drinks, but I would drink me a Red Bull slushie.

[KARLI] I love Red Bull.

[A.P.] This same friend literally gets one of those every day.

[JAMIE] Oh, their poor heart.

[KARLI] [laughing] My heart physically hurt hearing that. [A.P. chuckles]

[JAMIE] Ugh.

[INTRODUCTION MUSIC PLAYS]

[JAMIE] Welcome to The Act Break where we're talking about all things story.

[KARLI] Take a break from your creative endeavors and hang out with us.

[JAMIE] Have a little simulated human interaction.

[KARLI] Because internet friends totally count.

[INTRO MUSIC FADES]

[JAMIE] We're constantly rusty but like, you know when life just throws you off, and so we decided to subject you to that. [Karli laughs]

[A.P.] Cool.

[JAMIE] [Singsong] You're welcome.

[A.P.] Good episodes lately. I've really enjoyed the last few. Not that you know, not that I'm saying that I haven't before that.

[JAMIE] [chuckles] Very nice.

[A.P.] You guys are finally you know getting [laughing]—just kidding.

[KARLI] Finally getting your shit together. [laughing]

[JAMIE] Finally hitting our stride. That's fair. All episodes can't be of the same exact quality. Sure we try. But when you're done making them you're like, eh, this one's not gonna be a home run, but you know, it is gonna fill a space.

[A.P.] I definitely remember that thought process where you're like, yeah, can't all be winners. [all chuckling]

[JAMIE] But thank you for listening. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yes, we're very grateful that you listen to us, and then you still come talk to us.

[A.P.] I'm like, man, I gotta come make this better. [laughs]

[JAMIE] I gotta come on and correct them. Get them straightened out.

[A.P.] I have literally had arguments with you guys while listening to your podcasts. [all laugh]

[KARLI] Listen, I would like for you to like, record those and send them to us.

[JAMIE] What about? I want to know, what's the first thing that comes to mind?

[A.P.] I'm gonna start my own podcast. It's a reaction podcast. [A.P.] and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] No, what's the first thing that comes to mind that you wish you could have yelled at us about?

[KARLI] I feel like you—the things that you really want to yell at us about you discord message us.

[A.P.] No, no, trust me, I filter myself for you guys.

[KARLI] Oh?!

[A.P.] It's—it's a nightmare otherwise. [all laugh]

[JAMIE] Wow, no wonder you showed up today really wanted to be able to have your say.

[A.P.] Tired of being silenced by a pre recorded episode that I'm listening to. [all chuckling]

[JAMIE] But it does make me feel good though. Because I'm like, the whole concept was like, I want people to feel like they're with us. And if you feel like you can yell at it. I feel like it's pretty close to how it is when you're really with us.

[A.P.] It's true.

[KARLI] Okay. Welcome back to The Act Break podcast, folks. Today, we have a great conversation. I have to introduce myself first. [A.P. laughs]

[JAMIE] And maybe it'll be a great conversation.

[KARLI] It's going to be great. I will it to be so mainly because the two of you are here and bring better dialogue than I do. Okay. I'm Karli, and I'm here. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Thanks for being here, Karli. [chuckles]

[KARLI] [laughing] That's about all I got for you.

[JAMIE] I am Jamie Redact. And my opinion of my speech and dialogue skills are so high that I co-created this podcast. [all laughing] Oh, man, the things that come out of my mouth are super valuable. I should share them with the world. And we're joined today by our friend, A.P.

[A.P.] Hi, thanks for having me back again.

[JAMIE] If you don't know who A.P. is, you must be new here.

[A.P.] Consider yourself lucky. [chuckles]

[KARLI] No, no, the true luck is getting to know you, A.P.

[JAMIE] But this will be your last episode.

[KARLI] Yeah. Cutting you off after this one.

[A.P.] I'm gonna just walk into the ocean after this episode is over. [Jamie laughs]

[KARLI] Really tired of you yelling at us. Really, really. That's what it is.

[A.P.] I'm tired of yelling at you. Come at me correct. [all laugh]

[KARLI] I feel like this is gonna be spicy. Probably not as spicy as I think. You guys probably agree on this topic.

[JAMIE] And that's why I'm so interested in what you maybe were going to yell at us and disagree about because, not every time but often, we're our thoughts and opinions are close to being in the same alignment, A.P. and I. So I'm like when you do differ, I want to hear about it. Because I want to know what's wrong with you. No I'm just kidding. [laughs]

[A.P.] [laughing] I'll start taking notes. I'll start trying to remember specific ones.

[JAMIE] Good, good, good, good. Good.

[A.P.] To be fair. I think it's usually Karli I'm disagreeing with.

[KARLI] Gasp. Shocker. [A.P. and Jamie laugh] No. Disagree with me?

[A.P.] I wouldn't say I was yelling at Karli while listening to her talk about Vonnegut. [Jamie laughs] But I was disappointed.

[JAMIE] I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed. [all laugh]

[KARLI] I am not surprised. You very snobby people in your high, highfalutin Vonnegut opinions.

[A.P.] No, I haven't even read that much Vonnegut. So I'm just just giving you shit.

[KARLI] No, it's fine. I don't care. All right. So as—sorry, guys, I feel like I'm stuck in a loop.

[A.P.] [whispers] Aren't we all?

[JAMIE] [whispers] I've been living this day over and over for 1,000 years.

[A.P.] Oh my god. [laughs]

[KARLI] Okay, guys, today we are discussing dialogue. The reason I want to have this conversation is because I feel like I suck at it. And I would like to hear all your juicy ideas about the dialoguing of it all. In fiction. Well, just in general, I guess.

[A.P.] Well, why do you think you suck?

[KARLI] Because I don't practice it enough. And I feel like it is painful. [A.P. chuckles] Every time I have to write dialogue.

[A.P.] No, like, what? What gives you the idea that you don't think your dialogue is good? Not like, what aren't you doing for your dialogue?

[KARLI] Uh, making them sound like they're having real conversations instead of like, "we're gonna do a thing now." I mean, that's how I feel when I'm writing dialogue. [laughs]

[JAMIE] So would you would you like, you feel like the conversations come off as more performative than organic?

[KARLI] Yeah, yeah, they're there to serve what I need it to serve. And that's it. Like, they don't feel like anything else to me. See, I wanted to have this conversation so I could ask you guys questions. Stop turnin' it around on me.

[A.P.] No, just when you you know, when he gave me the topic, I was new said the thing. I was trying to think back to what I've read of yours. And I was like, I don't remember any issue with dialogue, so.

[KARLI] I write as little dialogue as possible. [A.P. and Jamie laugh] I try to craft my narrative to make it so I don't have to write dialogue as much as possible, which is why I like to write people alone all of the time. [laughs] And then when somebody show up, they're just trying to kill each other. So little dialogue, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. Everybody's alone again, yay.

[JAMIE] Now that I think about it. A lot of your characters are alone. [all chuckle]

[KARLI] I mean, see, see what I did there?

[A.P.] Smart, very smart. It's a stylistic choice, why deviate from it?

[JAMIE] You're playing to your strengths. It's a legitimate strategy. I have something to admit, when a book kind of is seeming a little slow to me. And I start to like, skim read it. I will just go from dialogue to dialogue, and kind of just like, glance over the other stuff and skip straight to the dialogue.

[KARLI] I do that too.

[A.P.] Totally. A hundred percent.

[JAMIE] [laughing] Okay good.

[A.P.] Next dialogue. Next dialogue. Yep, I got what they're saying.

[JAMIE] Let's get this moving.

[KARLI] Even as somebody who loves like world building and stuff, but exactly if the book is feeling slow, I'm like, I don't care about any of this exposition. What are they going to say to each other?

[JAMIE] Yeah. And so much in those in between the dialogue is something that is like, either implied, or really not important. Like, he turns towards the door. It's like, we don't care. So like, if I want a book to move faster, I'm just like okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one. Cool, let's proceed.

[KARLI] And then later, she's like, I didn't really care about the character. I don't know why, like, I just didn't feel invested. I'm like, well, maybe—

[A.P.] I didn't really get a good sense of space when I was reading.

[JAMIE] I don't know where I was.

[KARLI] Maybe you missed that when he turned to the door that somebody came in?

[JAMIE] Not like I do that with every book. And there's lots of books I've read every single word of it, and I still don't care about the character.

[KARLI] I know.

[JAMIE] I'm just hurt.

[KARLI] I just like to give you shit. Oh, boy. So dialogue. Where where to begin with—with the dialoguing?

[A.P.] Where dost one begin-neth? [chuckles]

[KARLI] Oneth begginnith [A.P. chuckles] with conversations between fictional people? I feel like there are set rules with you know how to craft an effective dialogue. How do you feel about the concept of knowing the rules before you can break them when it pertains to dialogue?

[JAMIE] Follow up. I wasn't totally sure what you meant by rules.

[KARLI] [laughing] I knew you were gonna say that.

[JAMIE] When I think about the rules of dialogue, quote, unquote, I use air quotes a lot, which is not great for a hearing medium.

[A.P.] Podcasts. A famously visual medium. [all chuckle]

[JAMIE] Exactly. I think about like the grammar and structure like, dialogue cues go here and you paragraph to a new—all those things. When I think of the rules of dialogue, I think about the structure, not what's going in between the quotations, not the things they're saying. And I think that those are incredibly important. And you should follow all the rules, because those are designed for clarity and understanding. There's a standard, and that helps your readers know what it is. So absolutely use all of the grammatical and all of those rules.

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] Although.

[JAMIE] Oh?

[A.P.] I do love when someone kind of throws that out the window in short stories and is like, like, one character literally doesn't have dialogue tags. And just it's in the text of like, you turn to them and say this, or they just like don't have quotation marks anywhere.

[KARLI] The entities speaking in all capitals.

[JAMIE] Yeah. Unless it's like an incredibly stylistic and consistent thing. Like if you have like a thing you're doing.

[A.P.] Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the know the rules so you can break them. But you know, despite me personally kind of enjoying that when it comes to short fiction. Most people don't. [Jamie chuckles] I have a friend of mine who, you know, submitted a few pieces that didn't have quotation marks and did some some dialogue stuff. And every time an editor will come back, and be like, I'm adding quotation marks here for ease for the reader. And they were like, god dammit. [all chuckle]

[JAMIE] Well, I like it when there's no quotations for maybe like an entity, like something that's not necessarily a physical being. It's kind of cool to have no quotations there. Because it's like, then you're like, you don't know if that's just like a sound coming down from the unknown realm or something that's in their head. Like, it adds a whole different element. I don't mind those things, but probably more in short fiction.

[A.P.] It's tough.

[KARLI] I tried to read Margaret Atwood, and I'm just like, I'm lost [laughs] like, I can't— [A.P. chuckles]

[JAMIE] Which one?

[KARLI] Handmaid's Tale. It was like, I can't read a whole book where there's like, I can't... [laughs]

[JAMIE] What is, what's missing from that? I haven't picked it up.

[KARLI] The quotation marks around the dialogue.

[JAMIE] All of them?

[KARLI] At least in the copy that I had. So I don't know if that's like a general rule of hers, or if it's that book, or if I just got the shitty copy, [laughs] I don't know. [A.P. chuckles] So when I was thinking about rules, I definitely wasn't thinking about the grammatical rules. I was just kind of curious what other people were saying about dialogue. So I did, I did some googling. They say things like, use dialogue as you would actual speech and show what the characters are doing while they're talking and keep, you know, that sort of thing. So I just, I was curious if you guys had any specific things that you've heard somebody say, like, you have to do this with dialog, and you're like, absolutely not.

[A.P.] Yeah. Earlier on. When I first started take this seriously, you know, it was listening to all the prescriptive advice. And I feel like a lot of that I've kind of, you know, tucked away and kind of bring out every once a while, but kind of do my own thing. But when it comes to dialogue, there are two things that have always stuck with me from the very beginning. The first one is using said and asked basically, exclusively, when it comes to dialogue tags, and like, you know, he whispered or he screamed or like that, just get rid of all that. And the second one is to use action tags for dialogue. And so those are the two things that I aggressively do in all my writing. Like, I almost never put, like he said, she said, it's almost always action.

[KARLI] That was my next question is about dialogue tags. So how do you feel about them? So obviously, you, you have very specific opinions on how you like to handle that because there are people in the camp of everybody, like they said, after everything, don't use, don't use anything else. And there are some writers who they're like, he growled, after everything. And then there are people who are like, no action only. So it's just, I like to hear what other people like to do.

[JAMIE] I like to think if you use all of the grammatical and structural rules of, of when to go to a new paragraph, and things like that—with that, plus, if you've created characters that have distinct voices, or distinct, you know, character—I like to use as few dialogue tags as possible.

[KARLI] You should be able to know who's talking based on their character, and how you framed it.

[JAMIE] Yeah, based on what they're saying. Because when you get to like a real juicy part where it's just a conversation of back and forth, you know, a lot of people you just drop off those dialogue tags because it's like new line, other person's switch, switch, switch. So if you're doing those two things right, you can use less and less dialogue tags, but I do agree with you, A.P., using they said is so bleh. And that's just something that if you have like a reader who reads a lot like their brain is just auto skipping over that anyway.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's the invisible word. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Whereas if you're using like the growled, or she side or an action tag, it's giving you more insight into the character's personality, instead of just the arbitrary, they said.

[A.P.] Well, so the action tags I'm talking about are not the he sighed, he growled, he whatever, those things. Yeah, those things I actually dislike. I'm really finicky when it comes to dialogue. And if it's done really well, like nothing gets me sweatier, than just a really awesome conversation where it's just flowing. [Jamie chuckles] It's like, you know, punchy want to want to you know, who's talking like you said.

[KARLI] I love how much you come on here and talk about getting sweaty over things. Thank you so much.

[A.P.] I'm a sweaty man, what do you want me to tell you. [all laughing] And nothing upsets me more than poorly written dialogue, where it's just like,

[KARLI] Oh, shit, don't read any of my old work please. [laughing]

[A.P.] [chuckling] Okay.

[JAMIE] So can you give an example of an action tag that you're talking about?

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah. So it'd be like someone saying, "What are you doing here?" And then period, end of quotes, and then he gripped the edge of the counter while looking at her.

[JAMIE] Yeah.

[A.P.] You know, so it's like—

[KARLI] Separate thought, but it's, it's expounding on what's happening with his emotions with that question, because like, there's so many different ways you can say, what are you doing here? Like, how does he actually feel when asking that question? You know, so. Absolutely.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it also helps one show an emotion of the character and two, give you like, define your space of what's happening?

[A.P.] Totally. Yeah, yeah, that's why I like them.

[KARLI] If you use it well, exactly, you can get a visual of what he—what the character is doing, wherever they are, and the physicality of their space and where they are in relation to the other characters. And all of that. Early days, I aggressively tagged my dialog, you would hate it all A.P., and it would make you really upset. [A.P. and Karli chuckle] But I mean, I do hope that I am really trying to practice that whole, really trying to make sure that the characters and everything is very clear. And who's talking so that I can tag as little as possible because when reading, I don't love dialogue tags, I don't love the, no, like especially I feel like rom—romance and Y.A., they use a lot of the, he growled, and I'm like, this is I saw a meme the other day. And they said, this is a romance book, not the animal kingdom. Okay? [laughs] It's just I—

[A.P.] How do you growl a word, also?

[KARLI] I don't understand the obsession using those things. Like, let's see, let's use the other let's use the action tags to act like an action sentence or phrase afterwards, than using these things over and over and over again.

[JAMIE] It's funny that we've been like using growled and sighed because those are like, even though I've been saying they sighed, I'm like, you can't really say a word like a sigh is an action. Like you can whisper a word.

[JAMIE] [sighing] Hello.

[KARLI] [sighing] Jamie. I sighed a word. [A.P. and Karli laugh] You're welcome.

[JAMIE] I just feel like it's a weird thing to say just personally. [laughing]

[KARLI] It is it's fair. And I think, I don't necessarily think never use those. I have seen them used where I don't mind it. I would say, be careful with those. All of your tags should not be those things because I think they slow readers down. And there are better ways to get across what you're trying to do.

[JAMIE] Also, if there's like, if you very specifically use something in an important spot, it can be impactful, but not if you use it all the time.

[KARLI] Exactly. It loses its—

[JAMIE] And that goes for like a lot of different words.

[A.P.] And to play devil's advocate a little bit, even though I personally don't like it. That kind of stuff is a staple of some genres, like you said romance and Y.A. and some people do expect that when they're reading those genres. So that's more about knowing your genre and your audience. And you know, it's fine. It's not for me, I don't like that but—

[JAMIE] But that is part of it.

[KARLI] That is part of it. And you—that is correct. Thank you for bringing that up.

[JAMIE] And if you haven't already listened to it, go back and listen to our episode on genre expectations. [A.P. chuckles] Which hasn't come out yet, A.P., but we just recorded it. [chuckles]

[A.P.] I was like, hmm, I don't remember that one.

[KARLI] In that though, um, the whole making dialogue sound natural and not contrived, I think those words kind of make the dialogue feel contrived. It—just that's my, that's my take when I'm reading it, is that I feel like it's being forced to fit a genre expectation than it is feeling like something that would actually happen in this scenario. I mean actually happen in air quotes. We're, it's fantasy, but you know what I mean?

[A.P.] Totally. A hundred percent. I agree with you completely. That's part of why I don't really like Y.A. and romance as genres, because there is an element of like melodrama and like, there's like a lack of verisimilitude that doesn't really jive with what I look for. Some people go in and like that escapism and like the like, stylistic choice and the kind of like, literary formatting that that gives you. But that's just not for me. It sounds unnatural. It sounds fake. And so it's hard for me to get into it.

[JAMIE] Yeah, that's a similar feeling.

[KARLI] I'm just, currently my latest fixation is and like, not necessarily in like I love it kind of fixation is Jay Kristoff's the vampire book, he wrote, I don't know if you either of you have read that at all.

[JAMIE] I've never read anything from him.

[A.P.] Me neither.

[KARLI] I can see it being a stylistic choice for your book. But if it slows readers down, I mean, it slowed me down reading the way that he tags his dialogue. And that sort of thing is is very much that. He's even said on his Instagram stories that he gets, like, the feedback from his editors trying to change everything that he says to they said, or, you know, he said, she said, whatever. He loves the he growled he, you know, roared, he mumbled, like he loves that stuff. And and obviously, his fans do too, because, you know, they come in droves for it.

[A.P.] Yeah, he has rabid fans for sure.

[KARLI] Yeah. So it's just interesting to me. I think it just comes down to you know, it comes down to taste when it when during these things.

[A.P.] Yeah, like, I'm, I'm a very judgy bitch.

[JAMIE] That's why we get along. [A.P. chuckles]

[A.P.] But I, for years, have been training myself to be like, dude, that's just not for you. And it's okay that's not for you. And I feel like I maybe extended my life a little bit by not stressing myself out about that kind of stuff.

[KARLI] There's nothing wrong with people liking that. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's just that it may not be for somebody else. And that's okay, too.

[JAMIE] To be clear. Like, I think it's fine to be a judgy bitch, as long as you keep your mouth shut.

[A.P.] [chuckles] Yeah. Keep that shit to yourself. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Just because you're a judgy bitch doesn't mean you have to like shit on anybody else's stuff.

[A.P.] For sure.

[KARLI] Being a judgy bitch and an asshole I think are two different things.

[A.P.] And I'm both. [all laugh]

[JAMIE] It depends on what field we're talking about, what aspect? [all laugh]

[KARLI] Yeah, that's true.

[JAMIE] I've never met a more supportive writer friend than A.P.

[KARLI] I've never met a more supportive asshole than you. [laughing]

[JAMIE] You can't be that big of an asshole.

[A.P.] I gotta balance it all out.

[KARLI] Keep people guessing.

[A.P.] Yeah. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] Let me read the note that I wrote before. Like we don't we didn't plan. Don't just think about what needs to be said for your story. [Karli laughs] Think about how people actually talk to each other. It's a back and forth. My biggest pet peeve, I have so many pet peeves, [A.P. laughs] there's no way to actually say which one's my biggest pet peeve.

[KARLI] Because there's so many that share that spot. It's like a shelf with knickknacks, it's cluttered.

[JAMIE] When characters are talking at each other instead of to each other.

[JAMIE] There's—it'd be quicker for me to say what's not a pet peeve. But when it comes to dialogue, the thing that drives me the most crazy, is when there's like not a coherent progression of conversation. I have read books where it's like, these people are having two different conversations like they're not even talking to each other. Because they're too busy trying to push the story forward. This person asks a question, and this person says something completely unrelated. But the person who originally asked the question never tries to circle them back around or get an answer for that question. It just drives me nuts, when like all we're doing is just saying things, but we're not actually talking to each other.

[JAMIE] And there are situations where it might be like an argument or somebody's being evasive, but when you're trying to have that back and forth to make characters feel like real people, that does not work. [chuckles]

[A.P.] So I think this is where dialogue gets really complicated. You always get told, you know, you want your dialogue to serve a purpose and you want to advance a plot and like do characterization and yada yada yada. And then you also get told, you know, make your dialogue realistic and blah, blah. But if you listen to how people actually talk, like if you listen to us, it's like um, uh, uh, and we're like cutting each other off, and like that would be absolutely horrendous to try and read. And so you have to find this kind of fine line between advancing the plot and having a word for fiction and not making it sound like it's just talking heads being like, "Well, you know, Bob," like, it's, it's complicated, it's hard. What you just said about like characters talking at each other and past each other. Obviously, anything can be done well and poorly. I actually really like when a conversation is done well, where the, the two people in the conversation have their own goals, and they're trying to like have their own like, "No, I want to talk about this." And like, "I want to talk about this." And so they're like talking at and around and past each other.

[KARLI] But as the writer, you have tools to call attention to that's what's happening, instead of making it seem like that's normal, and then not addressing it in any way.

[JAMIE] Done well, I think that that can be great. You have to know enough about the characters in the story to understand that that's being done on purpose, as opposed to just it, this happened on accident. Now, I don't know why we're having this conversation. [laughing]

[A.P.] Yeah, I think my tolerance for meandering conversations is probably higher. And I can just like, you know, if two people are talking, and it's like, kind of interesting, and like, it's showing cool character stuff, even if it's like a really quiet slow moment, I'm kind of okay with that. For me, it's on the other end, where it's like, like, ask answer conversations, where it's like, "What are we doing now?" "Well, we have to do this." [Jamie chuckles] And that's just like...

[JAMIE] That's another part of that, like, conversations that are just for plot. Like, all we're doing is moving the plot forward? Because I mentioned like, where it's like, seems like they're not talking to each other. But that can mistake can also be made. Like while they are talking to each other. It's just not interesting.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[A.P.] Or they're doing like a recap or something. Or it's like explaining elements of the world and how it works to someone who would know how that works in the world.

[JAMIE] Or there's nothing like in a TV show, when people walk on screen, and they say things like, "you're my brother." I always hate that. [all chuckling]

[A.P.] Brother, what are you doing here?

[JAMIE] Well, "I love you, because you're my brother." I'm like, whoever actually talks like that?

[A.P.] Who the f*@% says that? [[A.P.] and Karli laugh]

[JAMIE] Like, I know I'm your brother, what's wrong with you?

[KARLI] Did you hit your head ?

[JAMIE] More like, what are you doing, you shithead? [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, what you were saying, [A.P.], about how people talk in real life. So take a minute and listen to this episode, and then read the transcript.

[A.P.] Oh god.

[KARLI] Because what's actually happening is we're talking over each other and interrupting each other. And I do my very, [laughs] my damnedest to separate out. And Jamie actually does a really fantastic job originally in editing as much of that out as possible and shifting the dialogue so that people can actually hear what the other person is saying. But sometimes there's no helping it and it's all garbled.

[JAMIE] A transcript would be completely impossible. I keep us from talking over each other, just so you guys can hear everything everybody's saying.

[KARLI] Right. And every once in a while when somebody's laughing or something like that, I have to move things in the transcript so that you can hear the kind of order of how we're talking so that it makes sense. And so if you listen to the podcast and read the transcript, you can see that happening. Don't do that in your book. Like don't, [laughs] don't up be—it's a man,

[A.P.] Yeah, you can't.

[KARLI] It's a, it's a nightmare.

[JAMIE] Because it's like you want to make it sound real. But you don't, you want to make it sound like what readers are used to reading, that you don't actually want to make it sound like humans talk in real life, because even in movies, they make sure that they do that unless it's a choice. I think in a different episode I mentioned like the show, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, they're always yelling and talking over each other. There's a couple of movies that do this. Often they're like family movies with like groups and family where they're all together. And something like is either like a party or exciting or tragic in a hospital. And people are just cutting each other off.

[KARLI] Arguing over the dinner table type of thing.

[JAMIE] Yeah. And you can have cutting off in a in a book and that sort of thing. It's like but you don't really want it to sound like we'll actually sound.

[KARLI] It's the, it's the making choices about when to do those things. If you want to cut somebody off, you absolutely can do that. But you can't have that in every single conversation. You can, but you can't do that the whole book or you're going to lose people. So that's a choice.

[JAMIE] Or maybe you have a character that consistently cuts people off. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Are they named Karli? [A.P. and Karli chuckle]

[A.P.] Yeah, but how often are we actually talking to to our friends and we're not even saying complete sentences because we know what the other person is saying and where we're going. You just say, you just like building joke after joke after joke; and it's like nonsensical if you transcript it, it's just—

[JAMIE] Gobbledygook.

[A.P.] It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it's just like what the f*@% are these people actually saying? So trying to do that—I mean, obviously, that's mega realistic for life. But for reading, that's horrible. It's a nightmare.

[KARLI] We can't infer characters inside jokes if you don't fill us in on them first. And so I mean, sure, maybe later on, you can like do a little inside joke thing, but you have had to set it up earlier.

[A.P.] Mhm, yep.

[JAMIE] And that's—yeah, definitely. One thing I noticed early on with editing, or like so many times, you start a sentence, and then you just stop the sentence, because you were like the point was across. So why would I finish my sentence?

[A.P.] Like trail off into nothingness? And you're like... [vague noises]

[JAMIE] And so on. [chuckles]

[KARLI] Yeah, I think it's really difficult to look at natural sounding dialogue for writing novels, from watching movies and TV shows, because so much is inferred based on body language and tone. And those are tools that are very difficult to convey in writing effectively without being overly wordy or too on the nose.

[A.P.] Yeah, but good god do TV and movies also get real shitty dialogue.

[KARLI] I mean, it happens. [all chuckle]

[A.P.] Like, a vast majority of the time. I'm like, who the f*@% wrote this. I've been swearing a lot this episode, I hope that's not an issue. [laughs]

[JAMIE] Figure it out later.

[A.P.] Fix it in post.

[JAMIE] Just like saying, “I'm your brother,” or somebody explaining something where you're like, this person knows this. Why are they telling it to this person? Because in real life, I'd be like, yeah, you told me that yesterday.

[A.P.] You won't even let them get like to the third or fourth word you just be like, yeah, yeah, you already told me.

[JAMIE] No, exactly. But let me explain to you this very common knowledge that everybody in this world knows. And I know, you know, but I'm gonna say it again, [dramatic whisper] for the readers.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah, find another way to get that information across.

[A.P.] Or just don't tell the readers. They can figure it out on their own. [chuckles]

[JAMIE] I think things that are inferred are undervalued sometimes. Where it's like, oh, I didn't know this part. Or it's like, well, if you didn't pick up that part, you didn't pick up that part. Maybe some people do and maybe some people don't.

[KARLI] I am a major fan of people having to infer when they read. To the point where I am way too vague when I write.

[A.P.] [laughing] Me too.

[KARLI] And my, my critique partner and readers have to ask me, like, what does this even mean? [A.P. chuckles] I don't understand what you're talking about. So I have to, I have to go back in post and add more. I'm an over writer in some ways, like, you know, world building. But in the other ways I am an underwriter because I want people to—I love an element of mystery. I like for people to wonder what's happening in like, an exciting way. But a lot of times I leave way too much out and they're like, I don't know what the f*@% is going on. [laughing]

[A.P.] Yeah, I get that note often. I get two notes all the time. The first one is, bro, you got to explain all these terms. Like no one knows what any of these things are, you got to give us something. And the second one is stop repeating yourself. [all chuckle]

[KARLI] I can neither confirm nor deny that I have received both of those notes. [laughs] Regularly.

[JAMIE] I have a question for you guys. It's not exactly dialogue related. But since you had mentioned, like, you have to explain these terms, are those usually terms that you've made up or terms that exist?

[A.P.] Terms I made up.

[KARLI] Okay, because that is a fair note.

[JAMIE] Fair note.

[A.P.] Totally, absolutely. A hundred percent.

[JAMIE] But at the same time, depending on what it is... inferred. I mean, like a made up curse can be inferred. Like that's a big thing is you never actually say it means like, this is my version of the F bomb.

[KARLI] Frack.

[JAMIE] Or whatever. But I was just wondering about that, because I've had a couple of notes lately, where like, people are like, you have to explain this. I'm like this is a normal thing that exists in our real world.

[A.P.] Look it up.

[KARLI] Google it. [all laugh]

[A.P.] It's like if you come across a word you don't know in something you're reading, you stop and look it up.

[JAMIE] That's part of learning.

[A.P.] That's how you learn. Yeah.

[JAMIE] Just being a reader. Okay, thank you. [A.P. chuckles]

[KARLI] All right. So this next thing that I want to talk about, Jamie's going to have to ask clarifying questions, as per usual, because I don't know how to ask a distinctive question about it. It's an observation that I've made that I want to talk about the idea surrounding it.

[JAMIE] Vague concepts and theories.

[A.P.] Cool. [laughs]

[KARLI] Vague concepts. It's my favorite. I have noticed that the two of you have very distinctive voices in how you like to write things. Your narrative style. And your dialogue is also very engaging and interesting and feels different than your narrative voice. And I'm curious if there are ways you go about doing that, or if that's just something that happens for you.

[JAMIE] Well, thank you, first of all.

[A.P.] Yes, thank you.

[JAMIE] Very kind words.

[A.P.] Do you want the helpful answer or the truth? [A.P. and Jamie laugh]

[KARLI] I want, I want both.

[A.P.] Okay.

[KARLI] Give me the truth first.

[A.P.] The truth is, it just happens. [all laughing]

[JAMIE] Same.

[A.P.] It's just—

[KARLI] God damnit. [A.P. laughs] You guys suck. [A.P. and Jamie laugh] I'm, I'm done. I'm out.

[A.P.] No,no, no, okay.

[KARLI] I—I wanted this podcast [Jamie laughing] episode, so you could teach me your ways, and you're not helping me!

[A.P.] So the more helpful truth is that it just happens because I've been doing this for years. You know, the, what was it, 10,000 words or a million hours or whatever the thing is, and just over the years of writing, and trying things out and submitting things and seeing what works, I feel like I've kind of got to a place where I have an author's voice in my writing, and then the dialogue stuff is just, again, practice. Like this character. And this is kind of how I envisioned them in my head and how they would respond. And usually my characters aren't depressed, nihilistic authors, you know, so it sounds different. [all laugh]

[KARLI] I love that answer.

[JAMIE] That's beautiful. Yeah, the truth is like, oh, it just feels like something that happens. But to be clear, there are definitely different situations where those things are going to come easier as a writer. P.O.V. is a big deal. If I'm doing a first person narrative, my, my writing style is going to seem like it matches the character because that character is telling the story. Even though there is like a point of, this is narrative style and this is a dialogue. The third person narrative is where like, that becomes more like, this is narrative. This is dialogue. I think like A.P. said, it comes more naturally the more practice you have. And so with my quote unquote, narrative style, I also, depending on the project, adjust what that style is for the project. And there are some books where I'm like, okay, if I'm writing the narration part, this is me telling a story. And as soon as I get to a dialogue, if I've constructed a character properly, I like—it's like that writers are many people. I am not myself writing, I am this character saying what that character would say. And even with the the more stylistic narrative stuff that I've worked on in recent years, it's almost like, I'm not me telling a story. I'm this specific style narrator telling the story. So you know, like, you just become different people. [chuckles]

[A.P.] Yeah. So. So this, I agree completely with what you're saying and makes me think of a question for the two of you. Do either of you or both of you have like a constant running inner monologue? Like, I.R.L? [Karli laughs sardonically]

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Yeah. So I just recently figured out that some people don't.

[A.P.] Me too!

[A.P.] That's crazy!

[A.P.] Like, what?! Inner silence? Like, what must that be like?

[KARLI] Peaceful. So peaceful.

[A.P.] Yeah. [laughing]

[JAMIE] But yes, I do have an inner monologue running 24 hours a day.

[KARLI] Yeah. Sometimes it's not a monologue. I am several people in my brain. [Jamie laughs] Having a dialogue.

[A.P.] Yeah. And I feel like that's helped me with my dialogue. And even with what you were saying to me about like, first person P.O.V. and all that, it's like, I have the inner monologue who's like narrating the stuff. And then I have the actual things that I'm saying, and they're different but the, but the same voice. It's still me. But you know, filtered through, these are actually being said out loud versus being thought.

[JAMIE] And that's where I feel like that, like when you do it for so long. That's why it feels like it, well, it just kind of comes out of me at some point. I don't know. Because it's a hard thing to put into words.

[KARLI] My personal struggle comes in with the fact that my inner dialogue sounds like what we're recording, there's people talking, I mean, I'm talking over myself, I'm interrupting thoughts are starting and stopping. And so learning to separate out what's actually happening, what's like the undercurrent of what's happening in my brain is an exhausting endeavor sometimes. So sometimes I feel like that's how, one of the reasons why I struggle with the dialogue in writing is because when I start writing that's how it comes out. And I'm struggling to figure out where I'm—where am I going with all of this? I struggle getting to the point. And then going back and having to finesse that to make it reflect that.

[JAMIE] That's why I think, even though I know it's not always an option being like in a focused state, being in a quiet room, having my phone off or less distractions can help with those sorts of things.

[KARLI] Quiet room, what is that? [laughs]

[JAMIE] The more you can minimize the distractions and focus that can potentially help you get more writing done and get better writing done.

[A.P.] I go the opposite way, I go with really loud music in earbuds to just like, drown out everything else. And then it's just—

[KARLI] That is what works for me as well. Because the music, it's like, sure it's loud, and there's stuff going on in the music, but it's one thing, and if it's loud enough, I have to focus on it, I have to listen to it. But then that also when I get in a flow of writing that hits the background.

[A.P.] Mhmm totally.

[KARLI] And it keeps the thoughts quiet, except for what I'm actually doing. And yeah, I agree.

[A.P.] It's like the pain gate theory. You know, it's loud enough that it's just—

[KARLI] You can't—

[A.P.] It's the only thing and nothing else gets through.

[KARLI] Absolutely.

[JAMIE] It's kind of like a white noise.

[A.P.] Yeah, yeah.

[KARLI] Yeah. One of the tools that people use often, in order to get distinctive character voices, is they like to throw in dialect and accents. And I find it to be a challenging thing to agree with that as a choice. Because it becomes problematic very quickly. Give me your takes on that, like I don't really have questions. I just—I'm like dropping things and being like, let's discuss. What are your thoughts?

[A.P.] Dialects and accents have been done really poorly by the wrong people.

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] A lot of the time. I think they absolutely can and should be done by the people that know what they're talking about, know how to like, do it properly. I think, Marlon James, what's that giant book he wrote, that had to do with like Jamaica, it's like historical fiction. I forget the name of it, but it has—

[JAMIE] Black Leopard, Red Wolf?

[A.P.] No, no, it's not that one. It's I think it's about Bob Marley. Or around that time. I haven't read it. But a couple of my friends have read it and really enjoyed it.

[KARLI] A Brief History of Seven Killings?

[A.P.] Yes. And obviously, he knows what he's doing. He knows what he's talking about, and was able to do it well. And that shouldn't be changed by an editor. And it shouldn't be clarified for you know, a white audience or whatever. But so many times it's a white person doing an accent. Somehow.

[KARLI] For flavor.

[A.P.] Yeah.

[KARLI] And it just doesn't come across that way. It—yeah, I completely agreed.

[A.P.] Yeah, so I've seen it done poorly, so often, that even when I'm writing my own stuff, and I'm like, oh, this person speaks in this way. I describe how they're speaking and just write it out. And then let the person—

[KARLI] Autofill.

[A.P.] Read it in whatever voice, yeah.

[JAMIE] The first thing I was wondering about was like, well, when it comes to like, fantasy... Specifically, in my mind, I'm like, well, The Stormlight Archives, they've got like, dozens of different cultures. And a lot of the times kind of, like you said, A.P., where it's like it just says in an Alethi accent, and then it's written normal.

[A.P.] Yep.

[JAMIE] Of course, when you listen to the audiobook, it's changed a little bit. I enjoy those types of things in the fantasy world, because it's like, there's a whole different culture, they have a different way of speaking.

[KARLI] Yes.

[A.P.] Totally.

[JAMIE] Like, we don't all just sound like we're from the U.S.

[KARLI] Right.

[A.P.] And I think the Parshmen have, like a really specific way of speaking too, right?

[JAMIE] Yeah, the Parshmen have a basically a different sentence structure that they use. And then they also have a different aspect to their communication, that's not speech related.

[A.P.] Yeah. And I thought that like, that's done great.

[JAMIE] Yeah, it's done really very well.

[A.P.] It was awesome.

[JAMIE] And then you can even do it not even just talking about accents. But talking about dialect like Hagrid in Harry Potter. The way he drops some of his, what are they like, g's. Or, you know, there can be smaller things that aren't necessarily appropriating a whole culture. [laughs]

[KARLI] Yeah. I think the challenge that I've seen even in fantasy though, is a lot of writers um, write medieval white fantasy, and so then other cultures are automatically—even though it's a different race, quote, unquote, for their fantasy world—they are mass appropriating a culture in the real world. And do, if the challenge with with, even with fantasy comes in to play where you're not being like, well, this is the Asian country. And this is an African country. And like, you can use inspiration from the real world. That's what we all do. Like it's impossible to not. We're informed by the world we live in. But also utilizing one country or one culture for your fantasy world, and then using their accent or dialect. I just, I like—I just caution people in—with The Stormlight Archives, I haven't read that yet. I'm working, I'm actually just starting but—the like what you're saying where they use a completely different sentence structure, and I'm sure he frames it with the way their communication style is. So it is a new and unique and fun thing, not appropriating something that is in our world.

[A.P.] Yeah, it's, it's so easy. It's so easy to have characters just become caricatures at best, or just like awful racist stereotypes at worse. That's just lazy. It's lazy writing.

[KARLI] Yeah, it's lazy writing. I figured we would all have a similar perspective on that, but I felt it was important to discuss because it is something that is utilized so much in dialogue, because as writers we really, really, really want our characters to all sound different. So we're like, I'll, give this one an accent. You know...

[JAMIE] I feel like there's so much more you can do besides accent and ethnicity and changing the way people speak. Like even speech patterns are different regionally, and then even just the way some people think about things. They frame them in different ways than other people. So that when they go to communicate, they're not communicating the same way this other character would. So there's a lot you can do. It's so much, there's so much to unpack. [chuckles]

[A.P.] Kind of building on that, I find that even if you're using like, a Cockney accent, or like a Scottish accent, like you're not gaining as much as you think you are. You know, like, you're really slowing me down with this. Like, if it's in a movie or TV show, like you could hear it, it's a lot easier process. But when you're trying to read it, you're just like, you just like hit this wall of like, alright, well now I'm reading a stereotypical cockney accent and trying to figure out what they're actually saying.

[KARLI] Yeah, and that's not helpful. Like it just stereotyping in general, like, just not not good. And that's what ends up coming across most of the time when you're trying to do like excessively stylistic choices with the way you're writing your dialogue. I completely agree with the standpoint of just write it, you know, if you want to drop a g at the end of some words for a certain character, like I don't see the harm in small, small things like that, if you're framing the character around it effectively. But, you know, the big stuff, yeah, like you're not gaining as much as you think. Agreed. Guys, thanks so much for telling me basically nothing that I wanted to hear [A.P. and Jamie laugh] in the sense that you're telling me that I just need to practice writing dialogue more, so thanks—

[A.P.] Just get good.

[KARLI] Thanks for nothin'.

[JAMIE] You're welcome.

[KARLI] Uh, no. [A.P. and Karli laugh] No, thank you. It was a really fun conversation.

[A.P.] Well, here you want to tip? You want something to help?

[KARLI] I mean, I was going to ask for your recommendation next. Is this?

[A.P.] Well, the recommendation is different.

[KARLI] Oh, so this is free? Oooo.

[A.P.] Actionable advice. Bonus free stuff.

[KARLI] I like it.

[A.P.] Read your dialogue out loud, like read everything out loud, because that's good. But like your dialogue, especially if you're reading it aloud, you're like, oh, no one talks this way. This sounds bizarre. [Jamie laughs]

[KARLI] If you trust somebody enough to read it out loud for you, because what you will also do even if you read it out loud, sometimes you read it with a preconceived notion in your head of how you want it to come across, the inflection, the tone, everything and having somebody else who doesn't know what you were trying to do read it

[A.P.] Stumble through your words.

[KARLI] Yeah.

[JAMIE] Humbling.

[A.P.] Yeah, that’s—yeah.

[KARLI] Humbling indeed. [A.P. chuckles] A.P., do you have our Two Cent Recommendation?

[A.P.] I do have a Two Cent Recommendation. On the topic of dialogue. I wanted to share a director who I think does dialogue really well. And that is Guy Ritchie. [Karli gasps]

[KARLI] [whispers] I love Guy Ritchie.

[JAMIE] Karli's getting sweaty.

[KARLI] [dramatic whispers] He makes me sweaty. [[A.P.] laughs] His movies make me sweaty.

[A.P.] Yeah, you can pick apart his movies and like some are better than others and all that. But his stylistic choices when it comes to dialogue, I think are super solid because it's believable, but it's also in character and kind of musical and fun and like plays to the medium really well.

[KARLI] Witty.

[A.P.] Yeah. And like everyone's quippy, but you're not like, it's not like a Marvel movie where everyone says one liners like they are actually genuinely funny people being like, genuine. The one conversation that jumps to mind is during King Arthur: Legend of the Sword. At the beginning of the movie, they're like explaining what happened in the morning to like a guardsman and it gets—they like cut into each other to interrupt and cut and fast forward and all that it's just done great.

[KARLI] Love that recommendation. Guy Ritchie is one of my favorites.

[A.P.] For sure, yeah. I love, I love his movies.

[KARLI] [whispering] Awesome.

[A.P.] [whispering] Are we whispering now?

[KARLI] [whispering] The rest of this podcast will be whispers.

[A.P.] [whispering] A.S.M.R.

[JAMIE] I'm gonna go. [all laughing]

[KARLI] It got awkward. You can find A.P. @apthayer on Instagram and Twitter. You can find him at apthayer.com. Read his short stories. They're fantastic.

[JAMIE] Thanks for being here. Again.

[KARLI] Thank you. So very much.

[A.P.] Thanks for having me back. Always a genuine pleasure.

[JAMIE] [all laughing] Why were we both so silent after he said that?

[A.P.] Okay.

[JAMIE] We'll see you later this season.

[A.P.] Perfect.

[KARLI] You can find us @theactbreak_podcast on Instagram, @theactbreak_ on Twitter.

[JAMIE] There is a transcript available for this episode in the description. We'll talk to you next week.

[KARLI] Bye. You're not gonna say bye, A.P.?

[A.P.] Bye. [all laughing]

[JAMIE] He did a visual bye. A great medium for podcasting.

[A.P.] [laughing] They can see me.